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  #11  
Old 08-26-2010, 04:42 AM
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ilbegone ilbegone is offline
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B. Delay rewarding illegal alien families for successfully violating our laws, for one generation.
I don't think it's really rewarding illegal families. Those who are ultimately responsible for personal illegality will be deported, those who came here with something other than the motivations of a child.

Chain migration is ended, the parents, cousins and everyone else returns to and/or stays in their home country.

No one who ever entered the United states with adult reasoning will be eligible for citizenship, nor anyone who entered as a child after a certain cut off date (in cunjunction with correct interpretation of 14th amendment, see below) be eligible for permanent residency.

Furthermore, those who are not citizens yet are genuine criminals, those who have willfully failed to become minimally educated, and those who take undue advantage of our social services - gone faster than you can blink your eyes - regardless of their circumstances.

No more dual citizenship, no more divided loyalties, make a choice. If one chooses to be a citizen of another country, then the benefits of American citizenship doesn't apply to that person. And get the hell out, head first and airborne if necessary.

And the politicians and employers who let this mess fester for their own gain over the last twenty four years are drawn and quartered. Those are the ones who REALLY need to suffer for their sins, and I believe all too often we forget that fact.

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Anchor babies did not choose to be anchor babies. They are more eligible for citizenship then their parents
I believe you are missing the point.

Generally speaking, the main difference between someone who was born here to illegal parents and someone who was brought here at a very young age by illegal parents is the current interpretation of the 14th amendment.

Furthermore, if the parents, aunts, uncles, and other persons who depend on a child's American citizenship as a springboard to America are now deportable, those children born here to illegal parents are no longer "anchor" babies.

While I firmly believe that the 14th amendment needs to be interpreted and applied in its background context (and applied in a firm "born before - born after" mode concerning children of illegals), I don't believe in revoking citizenship of anyone who has previously enjoyed birthright citizenship, which would probably include everyone at this board as well as anchor babies.

Revocation of citizenship is a can of worms, which if not very narrowly applied, could turn into a sort of French revolutionary style guillotine, a weapon applied to the "enemies" of the "cause" to begin with, then feasting on its creators. If one has studied history, one sees how that one could get out of control fast.

I would reserve revocation of citizenship for those who fraudulently obtained naturalization, including adult illegal presence prior to naturalization for others than those who grew up in the United States.

Getting back to the children of illegals. Generally speaking, if someone has grown up in the United States, they don't belong to another country. Particularly grass roots Latin America, which will reject them for their cultural American - ness, regardless of how we interpret them in the light of our own American experience.
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Last edited by ilbegone; 08-26-2010 at 05:48 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-26-2010, 08:15 AM
Twoller Twoller is offline
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Originally Posted by ilbegone View Post
....

Generally speaking, the main difference between someone who was born here to illegal parents and someone who was brought here at a very young age by illegal parents is the current interpretation of the 14th amendment.

Furthermore, if the parents, aunts, uncles, and other persons who depend on a child's American citizenship as a springboard to America are now deportable, those children born here to illegal parents are no longer "anchor" babies.

While I firmly believe that the 14th amendment needs to be interpreted and applied in its background context (and applied in a firm "born before - born after" mode concerning children of illegals), I don't believe in revoking citizenship of anyone who has previously enjoyed birthright citizenship, which would probably include everyone at this board as well as anchor babies.

Revocation of citizenship is a can of worms, which if not very narrowly applied, could turn into a sort of French revolutionary style guillotine, a weapon applied to the "enemies" of the "cause" to begin with, then feasting on its creators. If one has studied history, one sees how that one could get out of control fast.

I would reserve revocation of citizenship for those who fraudulently obtained naturalization, including adult illegal presence prior to naturalization for others than those who grew up in the United States.

Getting back to the children of illegals. Generally speaking, if someone has grown up in the United States, they don't belong to another country. Particularly grass roots Latin America, which will reject them for their cultural American - ness, regardless of how we interpret them in the light of our own American experience.
Nobody who has a non-citizen as an ancestor has any business claiming to be a citizen of the United States. By that I mean if you have an ancestor who claimed birth right citizenship and who did not have both parents who were citizens, then you are not a US citizen. Of course, if any of your ancestors applied for and successfully became citizens, then this would not apply to you. We are talking about birth right citizenship and the consequences of confronting the problem of the corruption of this institution. Nobody who is not the offspring of both parents who are US citizens has any business claiming birthright citizenship and none of their offspring either.

The notion that children born of non-citizen parents just naturally are Americans is utterly derelict and really just ignores the issue of ESL classes and the endless language services that are supposed to be available for "citizens". But we see another new dodge here, the idea that these anchor babies are no longer accepted "culturally" by the countries their parents, or grandparents, or great-great grandparents snuck in from. Even despite the fact that English is still a second language to them, if at all. Even if they make a big deal out of identifying with the country they came from before their host country.

But you know what? If the country they came from rejects them "culturally", so what? It's not our problem. And how many of these countries care about protecting the US from illegal immigration from those countries? Do we really care about whether Mexico does not see it's anchor babies as Mexican any more? And if that's true, then why all the fuss when Mexico sees its infestation here in the US confronted in any way?
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  #13  
Old 08-26-2010, 09:56 AM
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It's not a "dodge" concerning cultural differences, it's the truth.

I know people who have thick accents, and understand but don't speak Spanish. They are people in between, despised both by people like you and their parent's countrymen as well. Exploitation style American employers don't generally want to hire them as well, too much American taint. The American born being seen as Mexican only works to the differing goals of the Mexican government and American brown separatists and their deluded lackeys. Otherwise, it's generally not worth a crap to anyone else. They, like their parents, are pawns worked to various political goals.

And blanket revocation of citizenship is a dangerous thing, where does it end? Get it started under any but the most narrow of circumstances, and it just might morph into something which reaches and touches you as well.

Much better to have the 14th amendment clarified as to its original intent and go by a certain cut off date of born before or after, as outlined in my above post.

Other than that, I'm not going to get into an endless cycle of arguing with you over what tint of blue the sky is or what time of day it is somewhere - anywhere here or else in the world: Greenwich meantime, international atomic time, Texas time, military time, Indian time, quarterly versus seasonal time, fiscal period, what semester we're in, lunar cycle, Gregorian calendar, Julian calender, BC-AD, BCE-CE, Mayan calendar, time for lunch, time for supper, time to hit the ol' fart sack, Howdy Doody time, effective time, work time, break time, time line, martini time, beer thirty, time for a cold'un, relaxation time, space time continuem, International date line, competitive time, 8 second rider, three minute wonder, gestation time or any other kind of time.
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SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

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Last edited by ilbegone; 08-26-2010 at 10:37 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-26-2010, 11:23 AM
Twoller Twoller is offline
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You have completely failed to grasp the problem and the situation.

Mexico and Mexicans have systematically established a population of people in the US who cannot be citizens. They are not the only ones doing this, language is not always an issue.

It does not matter what kind of hardships threaten those people falsely claiming US citizenship because they had a non-citizen ancestor somewhere back. It does not matter. That is part of the excuse and leverage being applied against US citizenship. The hardships that loom for those people is not the problem of US citizens. We are being deliberately attacked by having our country flooded by non-citizens. The interests of US citizens come first. Next comes the interests of naturalized citizens, all those people who have come in legally, applied for US citizenship and legitimately achieved it. As long as they are good citizens, then their citizenship should not be questioned.

But all the rest and their descendents represent an act of aggression and subversion and need to be confronted as such.

Isn't it obvious what you are proposing in some kind of cut off date? It is amnesty and can only exist as a leverage point and more opportunity for illegal immigrants and their anchor babies.
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  #15  
Old 08-26-2010, 12:08 PM
DerailAmnesty.com DerailAmnesty.com is offline
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Originally Posted by ilbegone View Post
I don't think it's really rewarding illegal families. Those who are ultimately responsible for personal illegality will be deported, those who came here with something other than the motivations of a child

Of course it is, and under the circumstances you have described, here's how it plays out:

Pablo and Juanita decide they want a better life for themselves and their children Paco, Pedro and Pepe. The parents decide that, in pursuit of this goal, they will unlawfully relocate to the United States and engage in whatever law violations will be necessary to perpetuate the family's existence there.

Pablo and Juanita sneak through Pima County, obtain jobs after settling themselves in an American city, and 6 months later manage to get the kids across the border, as well.

The family avoids detection for X period of time, at the conclusion of which they are "caught." Deportation proceedings for illegal residency commence immediately and it is quickly discovered that Paco and Juanita's children (now adults) were brought in as minors. Resultingly, Paco, Pedro and Pepe are granted permanent resident status, and Pablo and Juanita are deported back home (never to return).

As a direct result of their multiple law violations in pursuance of "The Better Life" objective (Conspiracy, Unlicensed Driving, Fraud, Identity Theft, Employment For Compensation While An Unlawful Resident, etc.) Pablo and Juanita have been rewarded with the following (at a bare minimum):

1. Legal residence in the U.S. for their children.
2. American citizenship for any and all of their grandchildren and family members produced by the grandchildren/later generations.
3. Multiple family members with the ability to obtain U.S. dollars and send them to Pablo and Juanita in the home country.


Essentially, the concept you authored provides the family a smaller reward than the amnesty in '86 or the Bush/Obama "comprehensive immigration reform" scheme, but the pay off for Pablo and Juanita's criminal undertaking is still considerable.
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  #16  
Old 08-26-2010, 12:12 PM
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ilbegone ilbegone is offline
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Originally Posted by Twoller View Post
You have completely failed to grasp the problem and the situation.

But all the rest and their descendents represent an act of aggression and subversion and need to be confronted as such.
I fully grasp the problem, and I see the situation.

You see it linear and black and white, I see it in color 3D.

What I propose earns me enmity from both sides, and if you actually read what I wrote above, it is actually quite harsh. It also has drawbacks for myself, but it is what I think best.

Your quoted paragraph in this post shows quite a bit of ignorant bigotry, why don't you be a man of your word and pick someone off the street that fits your profile and confront them?

And don't be harassing old women or little kids, pick someone who has calloused hands.

As I stated to you some time ago, If you and your buddies ever show up on my porch with your expressed attitude, I promise you a lesson on why you should be a little more self reflective.
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RAP IS TO MUSIC WHAT ETCH-A-SKETCH IS TO ART

Don't drink and post.

"A nickel will get you on the subway, but garlic will get you a seat." - Old New York Yiddish Saying

"You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra

Old journeyman commenting on young apprentices - "Think about it, these are their old days"

SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Never, ever, wear a bright colored shirt to a stand up comedy show.

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  #17  
Old 08-26-2010, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DerailAmnesty.com View Post
Of course it is, and under the circumstances you have described, here's how it plays out:

Pablo and Juanita decide they want a better life for themselves and their children Paco, Pedro and Pepe. The parents decide that, in pursuit of this goal, they will unlawfully relocate to the United States and engage in whatever law violations will be necessary to perpetuate the family's existence there.

Pablo and Juanita sneak through Pima County, obtain jobs after settling themselves in an American city, and 6 months later manage to get the kids across the border, as well.

The family avoids detection for X period of time, at the conclusion of which they are "caught." Deportation proceedings for illegal residency commence immediately and it is quickly discovered that Paco and Juanita's children (now adults) were brought in as minors. Resultingly, Paco, Pedro and Pepe are granted permanent resident status, and Pablo and Juanita are deported back home (never to return).

As a direct result of their multiple law violations in pursuance of "The Better Life" objective (Conspiracy, Unlicensed Driving, Fraud, Identity Theft, Employment For Compensation While An Unlawful Resident, etc.) Pablo and Juanita have been rewarded with the following (at a bare minimum):

1. Legal residence in the U.S. for their children.
2. American citizenship for any and all of their grandchildren and family members produced by the grandchildren/later generations.
3. Multiple family members with the ability to obtain U.S. dollars and send them to Pablo and Juanita in the home country.


Essentially, the concept you authored provides the family a smaller reward than the amnesty in '86 or the Bush/Obama "comprehensive immigration reform" scheme, but the pay off for Pablo and Juanita's criminal undertaking is still considerable.
You have the right to disagree with me, that's fine.

When the Mexican grandmother dies, the family is no longer Mexican. In my scenario, grandma ain't around, and familial connections become a distant memory.

Besides, at least until the last few years (with the problems in Mexico becoming intolerable), Mexicans didn't come here for a better life in America. They came to make money and return to Mexico. But they get wrapped up in the convenience of Walmart and rarely make enough money to buy that ranch. The weeks slip into years, and after a while, while not really liking America, they themselves have changed to where Mexico is no longer "comfortable".

And I'm not denying that Mexicans game our system or that there are not criminals among them, they do and there are.

But the adults have the memory of Mexico, the children don't.

If you actually read what I proposed, the criminals and slackers among those brought here as children get sent back with or in addition to their parents. The others are the ones I propose permanent non voting residency for.
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"A nickel will get you on the subway, but garlic will get you a seat." - Old New York Yiddish Saying

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Old journeyman commenting on young apprentices - "Think about it, these are their old days"

SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Never, ever, wear a bright colored shirt to a stand up comedy show.


Last edited by ilbegone; 08-26-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-26-2010, 01:17 PM
DerailAmnesty.com DerailAmnesty.com is offline
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When the Mexican grandmother dies, the family is no longer Mexican. In my scenario, grandma ain't around, and familial connections become a distant memory.
The question is not whether the family is "Mexican" or not. In fact, under your plan, the majority of the family isn't (later offspring will soon outnumber the original nuclear family that entered unlawfully). They're either American permanent legal residents or U.S. citizens.

The question is whether or not your scheme rewards families who engage in illegal alien conduct.

It undoubtedly does. Above, two family members get sent back (wealthier than they came in, and with quality prospects for receiving assistance from El Norte that they didn't have before). Meanwhile every other family member has landed the lottery prize of life in the wealthiest, most egalitarian nation on Earth.

And the only reason any of this fell into their laps is because Pablo and Juanita undertook premeditated and systematic criminal activities in our nation.


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Originally Posted by ilbegone View Post
But the adults have the memory of Mexico, the children don't.
You mean like these children? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ9mpBSqZs0
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  #19  
Old 08-26-2010, 06:10 PM
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Needed deletion....
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Freibier gab's gestern

Hay burros en el maiz

RAP IS TO MUSIC WHAT ETCH-A-SKETCH IS TO ART

Don't drink and post.

"A nickel will get you on the subway, but garlic will get you a seat." - Old New York Yiddish Saying

"You can observe a lot just by watching." Yogi Berra

Old journeyman commenting on young apprentices - "Think about it, these are their old days"

SOMETIMES IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

Never, ever, wear a bright colored shirt to a stand up comedy show.


Last edited by ilbegone; 08-27-2010 at 12:46 AM.
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  #20  
Old 08-26-2010, 07:02 PM
DerailAmnesty.com DerailAmnesty.com is offline
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I'm not going to hit the link designated "these children".

If someone looked long and hard enough, they would find a picture of your mother with her coochie hanging out in the most embarrassing of situations.

And don't think that women of your mother's age didn't calculate their benefits concerning "love".

So spare me the gratuitous photography or text and either engage in meaningful discussion or ignore me.

Gratuitous? Coochie? Mom?

Wow, where did that come from?

Dude, chill. I'm analyzing what you proposed, not deriding you.

Since you appear to be more than a bit sensitive about this topic (this is the second time you snapped at me in this thread), I'll keep this real short and not post anything further:

Your plan rewards families of illegal aliens for knowingly violating our laws. And a lot of the beneficiaries of the residency rights your plan doles out, don't feel a great deal of appreciation or allegiance to the U.S. Further, the people who will be saddled with the expenses and imposition of uninvited foreign nationals now permanently amongst us, that your plan results in, are American citizen taxpayers who have done nothing wrong.

Absolutely best case scenario with your plan - In a few generations all traces of loyalties to Raza separatism, allegiance to foreign nations and disrespect for America are absent from the progeny of the illegals you let stay. Further, all offspring of people your plan provided amnesty to are educated, self-sufficient and paying more than their fair share in taxes.

That's all great, assuming everything works out perfectly, except for one thing. You, me and everyone who reads this thread today will have been dead for many years.

I have an alternate proposal: Throw illegals out and permanently bar them from readmission to the United States. Then reduce legal immigration into this country from Mexico and other major violators of our nation's sovereignty, by two thirds.

Absolutely best case scenario with my proposal - The U.S. is no longer a dumping ground for the impoverished, excess population that Latin America sees fit to send our way. And perhaps most significantly, you, me and everyone reading this get to have a few years wherein we actually reside in America again and are spared from having to cohabitate, for the rest of our days, with the offspring of criminals your scheme turns into our permanent neighbors.

Have a nice day and go in peace.
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