Has the USA always been this insane?

[Don]

Originally Posted by Ayatollahgondola

You obviously weren't in the red zones of the anti-war movement, although '67 might have been a bit before the momentum. Any real opposition to the war was often met with force, and it wasn't always the anti-war people that touched of a skirmish...or riot as they were often referred to. Expressing your opinion back then sometimes got you hurt....by the cops...not any ethnic or pro-war groups. In that regard, we have it way better during our protest of illegal immigration. The tear gas ain't flyin' and you ain't getting billy clubbed or kicked by uniforms. Many of us were arrested for minor stuff for just being in the vicinity, but not necessarily attacking the cops.

I described my own personal experiences, not yours which are unknown to me and for which I'm not authorized to speak in any event. If you had different experiences that are eating away at your insides, go for it. You don't need permission from me. I note that you opted to stay in the US rather than to migrate to Cuba, Mexico or some other place for a "better life."

I also don't speak for anti-war protestors and certainly not for blacks in the South or any place else for that matter. Blacks with grievances don't need my help to proclaim their hatred of white people or to press their insatiable demands for "reparations" and other benefits incident to the legally favored level of citizenship to which they have been elevated.

I didn't mean to suggest that the US was an idyllic utopia in the 50's and 60's. It was not always a bed of roses for me, either.

I wrote an op-ed for my college newspaper the Black Student Union didn't like. They came to the newspaper office to attack me, trashed the place and beat up a white liberal whose bad luck was to be there instead of me. I guess we all look alike to them.

The liberal they beat up hated me. Is it not poetic justice that he got his ass kicked for something I wrote?

In the aftermath, I was called to the office of the College President to discuss this event. He asked me to "moderate" my writing style. I asked if any of the perpetrators would be prosecuted? He said, " Probably not. We must not over react!"

There you have it: Free speech liberal style, straight from the horse's...ah....mouth. This message, loud and clear, has resonated for the last half century throughout out America. If you're targeted for racially motivated violence by racial minorities, it's not their fault. IT'S YOURS!

[Greg in LA]

Don, says that America has definitely become more insane.

I'm not sure if Ayatollah is saying there is more or less insanity in our country now vs. 40 years ago. I'm getting the sense that Ayatollah is implying that the country was already fairly insane.

Whats striking me the most of both of your statements is your description of how plentiful the jobs were.

I concur on the job situation. A steady job these days is fairly golden and I am old enough to remember needing only a couple of weeks to get a job, even as a young person with little skills.

We're getting a lot of college graduated "interns" who are willing to work for free, and they don't need college credits because they've already graduated. I graduated in 1989 and believe me in those days the thought of doing an "internship" during college or after college unpaid would have seemed so ridicules it never would have crossed our minds.

Some people say we are more prosperous now than 40-60 years ago, in terms of cars and home ownership and stuff in our houses, but look at the divorce levels, and bankruptcy rates. Our countries population has also sky-rocketed, (mostly due to immigration).

I would still like to get a few more voices about the insanity level of our society and our government, whether it has increased and if so how much.

I think I should clarify my term insanity. The insanity I'm describing is all of the destructive policies and attitudes of our government and our people, the kind of actions that have little concern for the repercussions of actions and future impact on others and our society's future stability.

I see so little concern by our elites in government and business in fostering a stable society and a stable future for our country.

[Ayatollahgondola]

Originally Posted by Don

I described my own personal experiences, not yours which are unknown to me and for which I'm not authorized to speak in any event. If you had different experiences that are eating away at your insides, go for it. You don't need permission from me. I note that you opted to stay in the US rather than to migrate to Cuba, Mexico or some other place for a "better life." !

Ha! Nothing about that issue during that period is eating away my insides. I am proud of my anti-war activism, Although in retrospect, there were some activities I took part in that I would not do again if I could do it over. But not many. I vigorously protested the war, and also enlisted in the US Army, but I did so to avoid being drafted and having the war department pick which branch for me. Cuba or mexico was not the destination for draft dodgers though. It was Canada. But no; Evasion wasn't on the table for me.
Point wwas that it was a crazy time too. Real crazy. People thought the US was coming apart then too. Remember? It was all a communist plot to taake over the minds of youth and turn them against Capitalism, truth, justice, and the American way

I didn't mean to suggest that the US was an idyllic utopia in the 50's and 60's. It was not always a bed of roses for me, either.

I wrote an op-ed for my college newspaper the Black Student Union didn't like. They came to the newspaper office to attack me, trashed the place and beat up a white liberal whose bad luck was to be there instead of me. I guess we all look alike to them.

The liberal they beat up hated me. Is it not poetic justice that he got his ass kicked for something I wrote?

In the aftermath, I was called to the office of the College President to discuss this event. He asked me to "moderate" my writing style. I asked if any of the perpetrators would be prosecuted? He said, " Probably not. We must not over react!"

Now here I'll agree with you somewhat. There was a strong effort to swing the pendulum the other way on Black mistreatment. Unfortunately it was a misbegotten one. Instead of creating real equality, there was this detente type things going, where if a black student, or a group of them, mistreated a white student...or a group of them, then those white students complaints were dismissed, in the hopes everything would die down and everybody would go back to their desks and put their heads into their books. In theory it was wobbly. In practice it had a profoundly opposite effect. White student then reviled both the black students for getting away with infractions or even violence, and black students became emboldened and began flexing their muscles even more. Even a half-breed like me was considered a honkey, and what few black friends I started out in school with quickly evaporated into one or two, one of which was not to be counted on if he was in the company of his "brothers". It couldn't have been too much worse of a strategy really, not just for us students, but for some of the teachers who also came to some harm when muscle flexing became muscle using.

But a lot of those black kids made it through, as did I and other white kids. I can't place the blame on all black kids/people though. It was the blasted establishment that caused us all to turn on one another. Sure there were alot of bad black students, but I'll say without reservation that overall, Black families have suffered a growth problem because their culture was crippled by slavery, and it takes a few centuries to set things right. the trouble is, once again, our government establishment is getting in the way with their own nefarious schemes, and it is unlikely to help...much

[Greg in LA]

Ayatollah, you're making a good point about the craziness in America during Vietnam and the riots after the ML King shooting.
Yes those definitely qualify as crazy times in America.
Those events in my opinion led to a lot of the problems that we are fighting today.

How about the huge ethnic shift that has gone on in America in the last several decades, I would group attitudes to massive immigration in America into four view points:

Group 1: These people ignore every bit of it, it means nothing to them. If there is a problem they just move to a different suburb or city. They're only involved with their own day to day activities.

Group 2: These people are aware of the transition, but just keep smiling like it's all fine. Privately they may acknowledge some uneasiness, but wouldn't dare say anything publicly. Overall they would rank immigration problems as a distant 5th place on their list of priorities.

Group 3: Are very scared about the transformation, and it's very easy for them to envision disastrous consequences because of the immigration transformation and lawlessness.

Group 4: Is the immigrant groups, Mostly Hispanic who lust for more and more immigration, as they benefit from it personally, many in this group probably have a real resentment against White Americans. I would also add to this group Americans on the far left (ultra socialists, Communist, Black and Hispanic separatists), who are actively anti American, and particularly anti White.

I would put Group 1: the totally clueless and unconcerned portion of the country, at 35% of the country.

I would put group 2, the group that is privately somewhat aware of the immigration problems, but wouldn't dare say anything publicly, at 30% of the country.

Group 3, The side that is scared and aware (that would be us), I would put at 20%.

Group 4: Totally unassimilated immigrants, and far left Americans (Socialists/Marxists), I would put at 15%.

Those are my own estimates. I have know idea if I'm right, but I would be very curious to see what ratio people here think we have.

[Greg in LA]

So according to my estimate:

15% of the country's population loves open borders.

80% of the country will not lift a finger or say a word against massive immigration, amnesty or open borders.

20% of the country stopped the amnesties in 2006-2012.

The hard core patriots fighting the invasion are only 5% more than the hard core amnesty lovers.

65% of the country is apathetic about the issue.

30% of the country is aware of the problem, but is either so polite or so frightened of being called "racist" they wouldn't dare say anything.


When I analyze these figures, If their proportions are correct I would really describe our country as mostly apathetic, and only slightly more patriotic than anti American.

[Ayatollahgondola]

Originally Posted by Greg in LA

So according to my estimate:

15% of the country's population loves open borders.

80% of the country will not lift a finger or say a word against massive immigration, amnesty or open borders.

20% of the country stopped the amnesties in 2006-2012.

The hard core patriots fighting the invasion are only 5% more than the hard core amnesty lovers.

65% of the country is apathetic about the issue.

30% of the country is aware of the problem, but is either so polite or so frightened of being called "racist" they wouldn't dare say anything.


When I analyze these figures, If their proportions are correct I would really describe our country as mostly apathetic, and only slightly more patriotic than anti American.

I'm not sure where you are getting the facts figures or backgrounds to arrive at those percentages

[Greg in LA]

I'm not getting those numbers from anywhere, they're my own estimates. They're just a guess.
I put them out just to see what others think, and to see what kind of numbers and estimates others think are realistic.

[Don]

Originally Posted by Ayatollahgondola

I can't place the blame on all black kids/people though. It was the blasted establishment that caused us all to turn on one another. Sure there were alot of bad black students, but I'll say without reservation that overall, Black families have suffered a growth problem because their culture was crippled by slavery, and it takes a few centuries to set things right. the trouble is, once again, our government establishment is getting in the way with their own nefarious schemes, and it is unlikely to help...much

Thanks for admitting that:

(1) Whites have been relegated to 2nd class status; and,

(2) Blacks are not responsible for their actions.

Interesting theory of yours, that it takes a "few centuries to set things right" after slavery, that was ended 150 years ago. If it takes centuries for blacks to perform to the same ethical and intellectual standards as whites, as you argue, shouldn't under performing blacks be banned from life threatening occupations like practicing medicine, flying commercial airplanes, doing brain surgery, owning guns or making decisions about the use of nuclear weapons...at least for a "few centuries" and they finally recover from "slavery" and achieve the same level of accountability as whites?

And shouldn't vulnerable white children be separated from blacks who, for whatever reason, can't control their impulse for racially motivated anti-white violence?

Were not southern whites morally correct to use racially segregated schools to protect vulnerable white children from racially motivated violence by blacks, who are given a pass for violence because it is "not fair" to hold them to the same high standards as white children whom they brutalize?

How nice when people like you come around and agree that the southern white assessment of negro character and impulse control was correct all along. Whether you realize it or not, you've made a case for an anti-white racial caste system as well as for black inferiority.

I'm called a racist because I think blacks should be held to the same standards as whites, but you're regarded as "enlightened", "accepting" and "tolerant" based on your belief that blacks are not capable of meeting the same standards as whites. I'm sure black people are flattered by your high assessment of their intelligence and character and your belief that they'll act like savages for at least the next "few centuries."

So nice when people like you rip off the mask and show your true beliefs.

[Ayatollahgondola]

Originally Posted by Don

Thanks for admitting that:

(1) Whites have been relegated to 2nd class status; and,

(2) Blacks are not responsible for their actions.

Interesting theory of yours, that it takes a "few centuries to set things right" after slavery, that was ended 150 years ago. If it takes centuries for blacks to perform to the same ethical and intellectual standards as whites, as you argue, shouldn't under performing blacks be banned from life threatening occupations like practicing medicine, flying commercial airplanes, doing brain surgery, owning guns or making decisions about the use of nuclear weapons...at least for a "few centuries" and they finally recover from "slavery" and achieve the same level of accountability as whites?

And shouldn't vulnerable white children be separated from blacks who, for whatever reason, can't control their impulse for racially motivated anti-white violence?

Were not southern whites morally correct to use racially segregated schools to protect vulnerable white children from racially motivated violence by blacks, who are given a pass for violence because it is "not fair" to hold them to the same high standards as white children whom they brutalize?

How nice when people like you come around and agree that the southern white assessment of negro character and impulse control was correct all along. Whether you realize it or not, you've made a case for an anti-white racial caste system as well as for black inferiority.

I'm called a racist because I think blacks should be held to the same standards as whites, but you're regarded as "enlightened", "accepting" and "tolerant" based on your belief that blacks are not capable of meeting the same standards as whites. I'm sure black people are flattered by your high assessment of their intelligence and character and your belief that they'll act like savages for at least the next "few centuries."

So nice when people like you rip off the mask and show your true beliefs.

Yeah, you took quite a leap from what I said. I certainly didn't imply that black people were inferior. Neither did I say they shouldn't be held to account individually. I actually denounced that practice, if you'll open your eyes and actually see what I wrote as opposed to what you want to see there. As individuals, everyone should be accountable. It makes no sense to excuse anyone for an infraction or crime based upon their race. However, culturally speaking, helping black families regain their footing....somehow...after being exposed to centuries of slavery and prejudice..., is not a morally repugnant effort. In slavery, families were split apart, kids raised without benefit of an independence rich culture, inherent human values, and criminal or civil justice. They were owned...property. Did you expect kids raised like that over the course of centuries to somehow suddenly and magically cast off their past upbringing, be cast into a society they had previously only witnessed as spectators, and acquire all the social skills, family values, and adherence to ethics, and become an equal to those who had centuries of family roots, education, religious practice, and community support?

My mindset is that it is OK to pour some effort and money into black communities with very specific and limited goals to help improve their family and community ties. That's it though. restore their footing culturally.

Don, I understand how you feel, and while not every feeling you express here is entirely unfounded, I do think you have a lack of ability to absorb the misfortune of others based upon your disdain or fear of their race. I agree that current race based admissions policies are far too generous to selected races. Also agree that there's a concerted effort to villainize white people by many organizations and government officials. Where we part on our beliefs is that I don't think we should let our government get away with swinging the pendulum to suit the needs or desires of those in power. You, on the other hand, want to hold the entire race accountable as the instigator. I don't believe a black person is inferior to a white person, genetically or otherwise.

[Don]

Originally Posted by Ayatollahgondola

Yeah, you took quite a leap from what I said. I certainly didn't imply that black people were inferior. Neither did I say they shouldn't be held to account individually. I actually denounced that practice, if you'll open your eyes and actually see what I wrote as opposed to what you want to see there. As individuals, everyone should be accountable. It makes no sense to excuse anyone for an infraction or crime based upon their race. However, culturally speaking, helping black families regain their footing....somehow...after being exposed to centuries of slavery and prejudice..., is not a morally repugnant effort. In slavery, families were split apart, kids raised without benefit of an independence rich culture, inherent human values, and criminal or civil justice. They were owned...property. Did you expect kids raised like that over the course of centuries to somehow suddenly and magically cast off their past upbringing, be cast into a society they had previously only witnessed as spectators, and acquire all the social skills, family values, and adherence to ethics, and become an equal to those who had centuries of family roots, education, religious practice, and community support?

My mindset is that it is OK to pour some effort and money into black communities with very specific and limited goals to help improve their family and community ties. That's it though. restore their footing culturally.

Don, I understand how you feel, and while not every feeling you express here is entirely unfounded, I do think you have a lack of ability to absorb the misfortune of others based upon your disdain or fear of their race. I agree that current race based admissions policies are far too generous to selected races. Also agree that there's a concerted effort to villainize white people by many organizations and government officials. Where we part on our beliefs is that I don't think we should let our government get away with swinging the pendulum to suit the needs or desires of those in power. You, on the other hand, want to hold the entire race accountable as the instigator. I don't believe a black person is inferior to a white person, genetically or otherwise.

"Did you expect kids raised like that over the course of centuries to somehow suddenly and magically cast off their past upbringing, be cast into a society they had previously only witnessed as spectators, and acquire all the social skills, family values, and adherence to ethics, and become an equal to those who had centuries of family roots, education, religious practice, and community support?"

How pathetic!

Nobody is "raised over the course of centuries..." Nobody is that old. Nobody. This is nonsense. There is no such thing as the kind of genetic imprinting that you suggest. There is no evidence to support it.

From the colonial period onward, thousands of slaves were emancipated and lived productive useful lives and comported to the norms of civilized behavior. Many emancipated slaves in the south actually became slave owners in their own right. Slavery was first abolished in Vermont (before it became a state) and then in Massasschusetts. In the early 1800's, New York state had a large slave population that was gradually emancipated and those people adjusted to the challenges of freedom just fine. Likewise emancipated slaves in Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Connecticutt, and other Northern states made the transition, smoothly and seemlessly, to freedom. They married produced families, worked, started businesses, and voted, etc.

The blacks in the south were slaves only for an additional half century longer than the slaves in New England and New York. Funny how emancipated slaves, who actually experienced slavery, whether in the Northern or Southern states, adjusted just fine to freedom and were able to comply with the norms of civilized behavior.

Question: How did newly emancipated slaves make the transition to freedom without suffering from the "legacy of slavery."

Answer: They never heard of "Black Studies."


In the 1920's the Communist Party USA made a big pitch to "oppressed blacks and it fell flat. The CPUSA bemoaned the prosperity of American blacks and the influence of the black church as reasons for black indifference to communism. They were doing too well to sign on to a "share the wealth" agenda.

In the 1920's, a black leader named Marcus Garvey was elected by a convention of 25,000 blacks as their leader. Yes...the only black "leader" in history who was actually elected as such by black people! He proposed an ambitious program of black business creation, black education and, among other things, black colonization of and nation building in Africa. He promulgated the Negro Bill of Rights among other things.

Garvey was railroaded, convicted on phoney criminal charges (mail fraud), and deported from the US at the instigation of a politically powerful racist organization....the NAACP! The KKK actually raised money to finance Garvey's appeal, but without success. Garvey was destroyed by the politically powerful NAACP because Garvey's bold vision of economic development threatened the NAACP's "vision" of parasitism and dependency.

Only after the recent introduction of the welfare state and "Black Studies" and financial incentives based on such bogus nonsense as the theory of "Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome" have blacks been disabled by the "legacy of slavery." Modern Black dysfunctionalism is not a product of centuries of slavery. It is a product of ethnic scammers, frauds, and pseudo intellectual drivel that has no basis in fact, science or genetics.

In summary: There is no scientific or factual basis for your theory of black genetic impairment because of slavery.