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Old 02-13-2010, 11:22 AM
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Cruisingfool Cruisingfool is offline
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If that's a birth certificate, I'll ...
New campaign helps people creatively express 'flushtration' over eligibility
--WND

New bid to unseal Obama's birth certificate
Challenge claims Hawaii waived privacy by talking about document
--WND

Obama flack laughs off birth certificate question
'It's on the Internet, Lester,' claims Gibbs at White House briefing
--WND

Media find eligibility billboard campaign irresistible
Effort to see Obama's document covered by the London Times
--WND

Birth certificate campaign tops $45,000
'This is the way the truth will win in the end,' says organizer
--WND

Americans vote with wallets to see Obama documents
$75K already given to 'truth and transparency' billboard campaign
--WND

Grand juries cite Obama for ineligibility, treason
Hundreds of 'presentments' being handed to prosecutors
--WND

Unwrapped! Birth certificate billboard No. 1
First sign erected in 'truth and transparency' campaign
--WND

Obama eligibility lawyer cites dangers from delays
'Every passing day impacts lives of Americans'
--WND

U.S. bonkers for Obama birth certificate billboards
Campaign strikes chord on presidential eligibility issue
--WND


U.S. Supreme Court

The 'Where's the birth certificate?' campaign
Would you like to see this billboard in your town?
--WND

How to get eligibility ruling from Supremes
Lawyer outlines strategy to prompt court decision
--WND

2nd congressman: Prove eligibility
Virginia representative signs onto plan to demand evidence
--WND

Eligibility attorney plans return to Supreme Court
Says, 'I will be filing until I get an answer'
--WND

Eligibility case defendants don't want to answer now
Lawyer for Obama, Congress says representation decision unmade
--WND

Is Obama campaign cash quashing eligibility suits?
FEC shows more than $1 million paid to top law firm since election
--WND

Join 445,000 others in seeking citizenship proof
Petition demands verification of Obama's eligibility
--WND

Orly Taitz announces new blog
California attorney behind Obama eligibility lawsuits moves battle to fresh website
--WND

Did state election papers include eligibility perjury?
Campaign seeks investigation by attorneys general of documentation
--WND

Kentucky elections officer wants eligibility investigated
Refers matter to state attorney general for review
--WND

See where 'barrysoetoro.com' takes you on Internet
What does website using president's childhood moniker mean?
--WND

'Twittered' eligibility case lawyer faces threat of sanctions
Team defending Obama, Biden warns of 'costs, expenses, fees'
--WND


Orly Taitz (WND photo / Chelsea Schilling)

Meet fierce blonde behind Obama eligibility lawsuits
Soviet Union survivor: President spits in face of every U.S. citizen
--WND

Doubt about Obama eligibility spreads
Writer concedes 'ambiguities' weren't 'satisfactorily resolved'
--WND

What about the hospital of his 'birth'?
Hawaii moves to make Obama childhood home national landmark
--WND

Analyst warns eligibility could become flashpoint
'It is morphing now to include members of the armed forces'
--WND

Supreme Court asked to cooperate with FBI
Attorney investigating Obama's eligibility reports cyber attacks
--WND

The ultimate special report on eligibility
Why millions still demand proof Obama is constitutionally fit for office
--WND

Eligibility judge backs off sanctions threat
Instead 'reprimands' attorney representing military officer
--WND

Citizen grand jury indicts Obama
Groups in 20 more states reviewing eligibility claims
--WND

Keyes to appeal case on Obama's eligibility
Lawyer says dismissal 'eviscerates' Constitution's rules for president
--WND

Federal criminal complaint contends Obama ineligible
Ex-officer alleges prez used 'contrivance, concealment, dissembling and deceit'
--WND

Eligibility lawyer says Homeland Security shadowing him
Reports incidents involving county, federal agents
--WND

Obama open for questions from you today
Farah urges readers ask most obvious: Where's the birth certificate?
--WND

Justice, Supremes confirm getting eligibility challenge
Taitz documents demanding proof of Obama's birthplace to be reviewed
--WND

Suggesting eligibility proof gets congressman scorned
Faces comments including, 'Take the Reynolds Wrap off your head'
--WND


Vice President Joe Biden

Biden jokes about Obama's birth certificate at dinner
Says Cheney left copy of document in vice presidential desk
--WND

Supremes read Kansas blog?
Focused on page dealing with claims of ineligibility
--WND

Taitz to FBI: Investigate 'tampering' at Supremes
'305 million Americans need to know if foreign national is usurping presidency'
--WND

Man critical of Obama case judge visited by marshals
'I told your Gestapo goons we had nothing to talk about'
--WND

Judge ripped for using blog eligibility hearsay
Obama case lawyer says he's entitled to birth certificate discovery hearing
--WND

Chief justice accepts 'eligibility' petition
Roberts agrees to read Obama docs, consider WND's 330,000 signers
--WND


U.S. Rep. Bill Posey, R-Fla.

Eligibility bill hits Congress
Representative files law requiring candidates show birth certificate
--WND

Court: No need for state to check prez' eligibility
Judge throws out complaint brought on behalf of Keyes
--WND

Did Supreme Court clerk torpedo eligibility cases?
Taitz submits motion for rehearing in case challenging Obama's citizenship
--WND

Why are there still questions about qualifications?
Arguments of president's defenders never actually addressed eligibility
--WND

What congressmen say about eligibility
Lawmakers' letters insist 'president was born in Hawaii'
--WND


Antonin Scalia

Scalia: You need 4 votes for Obama eligibility case
Lawyer confronts justice about prez's qualifications
--WND

Is Snopes.com infallible?
If website calls Obama eligible, then he must be, right?
--WND

Eligibility issue sparks 'edit war'
Wikipedia blocks users from posting criticism of Obama
--WND

Wikipedia scrubs Obama eligibility
Mention of citizenship issues deleted in minutes, 'offending' users banned
--WND


Judge James Robertson

Judge: Eligibility issue thoroughly 'twittered'
Dismisses case brought by retired military officer
--WND



Republican senator says Snopes settled 'eligibility'
Arizona's Kyl cites website that assumes Hawaiian birth
--WND



Senator: Eligibility is up to the voters
Republican Martinez implies constitutional requirement for presidency can be bypassed
--WND

U.S. soldier gagged on prez's eligibility
Military member seeking documentation silenced
--WND

More military officers demand eligibility proof
Plaintiff: 'In the worst case … it's going to be revolution in the streets'
--WND

Obama eligibility tops AOL News
Internet reports mock 'Birthers' who want constitutional proof
--WND

California used to check prez candidates' eligibility
Lawsuit seeks school records to verify citizenship status
--WND


Retired Maj. Gen. Carroll Childers

Major General says president's eligibility needs proof
'Most important, what I really want is the truth'
--WND

Eligibility lawyer argues for president's deportation
Berg seeks proper treatment for 'illegal alien'
--WND

2nd U.S. soldier in Iraq challenges eligibility
Says issue could decide if 'we are a Constitutional Republic'
--WND

Soldier questions eligibility, doubts president's authority
'As an officer, my sworn oath to support and defend our Constitution requires this'
--WND

Senator questions Obama eligibility
Shelby: 'They said he was born in Hawaii, but I haven't seen any birth certificate'
--WND

Eligibility petition hits quarter-million mark
Nearly 3,000 a day question Obama's constitutional suitability
--WND

Alan Keyes: Stop Obama or U.S. will cease to exist
Claims 'communist usurper' plunges country into chaos
--WND

States reviewing 'eligibility' challenges
Montana tables plan while Oklahoma's gets committee approval
--WND

Keyes: President 'has something to hide' about eligibility
Says Dem 'asked to be chosen, therefore must answer'
--WND

'Sanctions' sought in eligibility case
President's attorneys file motion demanding birth, college records be withheld from public
--WND

State lawmakers: Prove you're president, Mr. Obama
Case being assembled to demand eligibility documentation
--WND

Eligibility issue: McCain checked but not Obama
Lawsuit contends Congress failed to qualify Democrat for Oval Office
--WND

Congress sued to remove prez from White House
'Defendants had to ensure the Constitution is upheld'
--WND

What did president tell Supreme Court?
Lawyer in eligibility case seeks records of secret discussions
--WND

Has newspaper really solved eligibility question?
Retired teacher cited as proof but she claims no first-hand knowledge
--WND

President's meeting with judges questioned
Lawyer challenging eligibility raises issue of secret conference
--WND

Eligibility battle rages on 3 fronts
Court, Congress and college challenged on constitutionality
--WND

Join 445,000 others in seeking citizenship proof
Petition demands verification of Obama's eligibility
--WND

Please check eligibility, thousands ask Supremes
Another round of urgent requests delivered to high court
--WND

Latest eligibility challenge rejected
Justices' conference results in no action on constitutional questions
--WND

Eligibility issue to follow Obama into Oval Office
Supreme Court sets 'natural born' conference to follow inauguration
--WND

Watch Obama commercial they don't want you to see
Fox, CNN, MSNBC refuse ads questioning Barack's eligibility
--WND

Supreme Court to take up eligibility question again
Conference to evaluate claims president-elect isn't qualified
--WND

FedEx Supreme Court on Obama's eligibility
WND makes it easy, cheaper to ask justices to resolve questions
--WND

AOL: Growing majority worried over eligibility
Even half in Illinois say issue should be reviewed, resolved
--WND

Berg files new challenge to eligibility
'There is nothing more important than our U.S. Constitution'
--WND


Attorney Stephen Pidgeon

Eligibility case finds 'standing'?
New suit claims unique state law enables citizens to demand proof
--WND

Most covered-up of 2008: Natural-born citizen
WND editors join with readers to determine the year's top 10
--WND

Message to Congress: Protect Constitution
Effort seeks volunteers to challenge eligibility
--WND

Eligibility remains focus of Supremes' conferences
Dispute posted on docket twice after Electoral College votes in
--WND

Supreme Court to talk about Obama 3rd time
Berg eligibility case set for conference Jan. 9
--WND

More challenges fail in Supreme Court
Kennedy turns back cases based on eligibility questions
--WND

Investigator casts doubt on Obama's birth residence
Neighbor believes family didn't live at address in newspaper announcement
--WND

Obama citizenship issue has merit, AOL poll says
Nation seeks answers to questions about president-elect's eligibility
--WND

Supreme Court refuses 2nd challenge to eligibility
Case alleges dual citizenship disqualifies Obama for office
--WND

Status report: The eligibility issue
Several cases still challenge whether senator can become president
--WND

Thousands advise electors to check eligibility
But 1 who teaches 'Marxist theory' ridicules concerns
--WND

Democrat's eligibility 'facts' knocked down
'If a guy ain't natural born, he can't be president'
--WND

Electors challenged to investigate birth dispute
'Only reasonable explanation' is he wasn't born in the U.S.
--WND

Supremes turn down request to stop Electoral vote
But Friday, high court will consider another case in flood of eligibility challenges
--WND

Keyes' lawyers invite public to 'join the fight'
High-profile eligibility lawsuit may succeed where others have failed
--WND

Eligibility question? FedEx Electoral College members
WND follows up Supreme Court letter campaign with historic 1st
--WND

Join exploding demand for citizenship documentation
230,000 already have signed petition
--WND

Eligibility dispute, Part 2, scheduled by Supremes
Court rejects claim challenging candidacy, schedules another for Friday conference
--WND

Supreme Court denies 1st eligibility challenge
Justices won’t give questions about qualifications full hearing
--WND


Demonstrators protesting Obama's eligibility and praying before the U.S. Supreme Court

Will Supremes review citizenship arguments?
Lawsuit: Even with a valid birth certificate, 'he still wouldn't be eligible to be president'
--WND

Eligibility dispute story spreads
Now National Press Club event scheduled on challenge to Oval Office occupant
--WND

More than 60,000 letters sent to U.S. Supreme Court
WND readers deliver urgent requests to review Obama citizenship
--WND

'Natural-born' requirement called 'stupidest provision'
Also 'discriminates, outdated, undemocratic and assumes birthplace a proxy for loyalty'
--WND

Pravda raises Obama eligibility issue
Other media outlets begin reporting concerns over president-elect's citizenship status
--WND


Document posted on Barack Obama's "Fight the Smears" website.

Hawaii hospitals: Obama not born here
Blog claims calls, visits to medical facilities reveal no birthplace of president-elect
--WND

Electoral College scam: Where dead people vote
Lawyer challenging eligibility seeks investigation of process
--WND

Democrat asks Supreme Court to halt electors
Obama lets deadline slip by without responding to petition, so attorney takes next step
--WND

Print, TV ads demand citizenship proof from Obama
Concerned Americans look to media to compel president-elect to release documents
  #2  
Old 02-13-2010, 11:34 AM
Cruisingfool's Avatar
Cruisingfool Cruisingfool is offline
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Imaging guru: 'Certification' of birth time, location is fake
'It would be hard to perform as president from behind jail cell door at Leavenworth'
--WND

Obama, DNC elude citizenship lawsuit deadline
Solicitor general's office dodges questions about birth certificate complaint
--WND

FedEx the Supremes about Obama's eligibility
WND makes it easy, cheaper to ask justices to resolve questions
--WND

Chasm dividing Americans over birth certificate widens
Opinions include, 'Constitution means what we say'
--WND


Ambassador Peter Ogego

Embassy: Obama not born in Kenya
Office claims ambassador was speaking about president-elect's father in radio interview
--WND

Orders from new president to spark lawsuit every time
Lawyer lining up plaintiff groups until citizenship dispute addressed
--WND

Proofin' the prez: Who's in charge?
Constitutional lawyer says electors have duty to investigate citizenship
--WND

Prez passes on Obama's eligibility
'I don't think I have anything to say on that,' says spokesman
--WND

100,000 petitioners: If you're eligible, show us the proof!
Throngs sign online demand, reveal frustration over secrecy
--WND

Shades of Florida in 2000! Could Supremes decide '08?
'Justices free to make their own determination regarding the specifics of the general election'
--WND

Petition to see the birth certificate
Join WND to help answer eligibility question
--WND

Is he or isn't he? The debate over Obama's eligibility
New feature focuses on birth certificate, the U.S. Constitution and doubts
--WND

Supremes to review citizenship arguments
Case challenging candidacy set for 'conference' of justices
--WND

We're in 'good shape' over Obama's birthplace
Presidential spokeswoman suggests there's no controversy
--WND

Supremes to review citizenship arguments
Case challenging candidacy set for 'conference' of justices
--WND
Alan Keyes
Alan Keyes

'Constitutional crisis' looming over Obama's birth location
Alan Keyes lawsuit warns America may see 'usurper' in Oval Office
--WND

Obama camp: Lawsuits by citizens are 'garbage'
Legal challenges spring up across U.S., demand proof of eligibility for office
--WND

Will Supreme Court have say in presidency?
Schedule includes campaign response to questions on Obama birthplace
--WND

Doubts persist about Obama birth certificate
Considerable evidence still points to candidate's birth in Kenya
--WND

Supremes asked to halt Tuesday's vote
Constitutional crisis feared over Obama's 'qualifications'
--WND


Gov. Linda Lingle, R-Hawaii

Obama's birth certificate sealed by Hawaii governor
Says Democratic senator must make request to obtain original document
--WND

Judge dismisses Obama birth certificate lawsuit
Rules voters don't have standing to 'police' constitutional requirements for president
--WND

Democrat: Obama's grandma confirms Kenyan birth
'This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months'
--WND

Obama 'admits' Kenyan birth?
Campaign doesn't respond to claims in lawsuit over birth certificate
--WND

DNC steps in to silence lawsuit over Obama birth certificate
Democrat suing his own party says it's 'like they're in cahoots'
--WND


Philip J. Berg, one of the first to take Obama eligibility question to court

Democrat sues Sen. Obama over 'fraudulent candidacy'
Lawsuit disputing U.S. citizenship based in part on discredited claims
--WND

2 campaigns seek 'truth' about Obama's birth
Eligibility for presidency hinges on American citizenship
--WND

Obama birth certificate: Real or phony baloney?
Authenticity of crucial document staked on Daily Kos-derived image
--WND

Blogger reveals Obama birth certificate
'All information is what we have been told before'
--WND

Is Obama's candidacy constitutional?
Secrecy over birth certificate, demand for 'natural-born' citizenship cited
--WND
  #3  
Old 02-21-2010, 02:35 PM
Dawes Dawes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerailAmnesty.com View Post
You didn't answer the question. What impact would Obama's mother being a minor and married (to anyone from anywhere) have upon the citizenship of her Hawaiian-born child?
First, you answer the question why you think he is a Hawaiian born child.

The only way to prove that is to show an Official State of Hawaii Birth Certificate. So far, he has not produced one. The only thing they have is a Certificate of Live Birth, which under state law, is NOT an official Birth Certificate. It is basically just a certificate to show the child was born alive and not dead.

This certificate can not be used as documentation for a U.S. Passport application.

So without that type of documentation, it would lead to other documents being produced that would lead to the original document, whatever that document may be.
Yes, he has a passport but what does it say on it?

Yes, he went to an American university, but what is on the application and financial paperwork.

Without any U.S. documentation produced, how does one jump to the conclusion you jump too?

He ran for president because some Democrats sent in a 2nd certified copy of a certificate saying he could run for president. That was the only thing that would have held him back. Of course, Nancy Pelosi would never lie about a thing like that, now, would she?
  #4  
Old 02-22-2010, 10:27 PM
DerailAmnesty.com DerailAmnesty.com is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawes View Post
First, you answer the question why you think he is a Hawaiian born child.

Why? I didn't say he was. In fact, I haven't represented anything about Obama, other than I can't keep track of all the theories/positions you birther types have been espousing here in support of your proposition.

Before CF climbed into the SOS campus clocktower and started spraying this thread with pump-action posts by the dozens (at which point I changed channels), from what I could gather, there were three essential points being made:


1. Obama was born outside the United States and is therefore ineligible to be President.

2. Obama never attended Columbia.

3. Whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii is irrelevant, because his father wasn't a U.S. citizen and, therefore, he shouldn't hold the presidency.

To a man, you Birther-ites agree that the former Senator from Illinois has no legal business occupying the White House. However, the assertions you folks roll out in support of your position are so varied, often times conflicting, and mostly requiring extensive conspiracies involving parties with wildly disparate interests to be accurate, that they strain the limits of credibility. Guys, you can't even agree on what the story is. So let me ask you, who really killed JFK? Was it the Cubans, the mob associates of Onassis or the CIA?
  #5  
Old 02-23-2010, 08:47 AM
Twoller Twoller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerailAmnesty.com View Post
Why? I didn't say he was. In fact, I haven't represented anything about Obama, other than I can't keep track of all the theories/positions you birther types have been espousing here in support of your proposition.

Before CF climbed into the SOS campus clocktower and started spraying this thread with pump-action posts by the dozens (at which point I changed channels), from what I could gather, there were three essential points being made:


1. Obama was born outside the United States and is therefore ineligible to be President.

2. Obama never attended Columbia.

3. Whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii is irrelevant, because his father wasn't a U.S. citizen and, therefore, he shouldn't hold the presidency.

To a man, you Birther-ites agree that the former Senator from Illinois has no legal business occupying the White House. However, the assertions you folks roll out in support of your position are so varied, often times conflicting, and mostly requiring extensive conspiracies involving parties with wildly disparate interests to be accurate, that they strain the limits of credibility. Guys, you can't even agree on what the story is. So let me ask you, who really killed JFK? Was it the Cubans, the mob associates of Onassis or the CIA?
It doesn't matter what people agree to. What only matters is what is beyond debate. The only thing that is truly beyond debate is that his father was not a US citizen. Not only is this beyond debate, but it also puts into dramatic highlight the crisis of US citizenship that has come to bear at this point. Anchor babies are the issue here and the fact that we have a fraud in the white house that should not be there at a time when the issue of birthright citizenshiip needs to be confronted the most is no accident.

This is just like the weird JFK conspiracies theories and the other weird conspiracie theories surrounding the WTC terrorist attack. They exist to deflect from what is clearly apparent and beyond debate.
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Criminalize asking party affilation for voter registration! End the "two party system"!
  #6  
Old 02-23-2010, 07:56 PM
DerailAmnesty.com DerailAmnesty.com is offline
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Originally Posted by Twoller View Post
It doesn't matter what people agree to. What only matters is what is beyond debate. The only thing that is truly beyond debate is that his father was not a US citizen. Not only is this beyond debate, but it also puts into dramatic highlight the crisis of US citizenship that has come to bear at this point. Anchor babies are the issue here and the fact that we have a fraud in the white house that should not be there at a time when the issue of birthright citizenshiip needs to be confronted the most is no accident.

You're right, insofar as your statement that Obama's father is not a U.S. citizen is concerned, that is. No one (to my knowledge) has ever claimed he was. That part is not your problem. What is your problem is federal law. You don't seem to understand it. I'll give you a reprint of much of what I posted last time you made this assertion (a post, I might add, to which you didn't respond):

That assertion is flat out wrong. You have misstated federal law pertaining to birthright citizenship ...

Not only is what you have stated inaccurate, it would be inaccurate if the law was modified in the fashion many border security activists would like to see undertaken. Currently, a child is legally a U.S. citizen if he is born on U.S. soil, regardless of his parents' unlawful residency status. Many individuals feel this is the result of a perversion/misinterpretation of the Civil War Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. They opine that a person should not receive legal residency if born in our country, if one or more parents is an illegal alien. Even under this formula, Barack Obama would be a citizen.



So I'll ask you again, Twoller. How does Obama's father's citizenship status prevent our current president from holding office?
  #7  
Old 02-23-2010, 09:11 PM
Twoller Twoller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerailAmnesty.com View Post
....

Not only is what you have stated inaccurate, it would be inaccurate if the law was modified in the fashion many border security activists would like to see undertaken. Currently, a child is legally a U.S. citizen if he is born on U.S. soil, regardless of his parents' unlawful residency status. Many individuals feel this is the result of a perversion/misinterpretation of the Civil War Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. They opine that a person should not receive legal residency if born in our country, if one or more parents is an illegal alien. Even under this formula, Barack Obama would be a citizen.[/i]


So I'll ask you again, Twoller. How does Obama's father's citizenship status prevent our current president from holding office?
The only reason that a child is "legally" declared a citizen if born on US soil is because of a perversion of the US constitution and a perversion of our whole institution of US citizenship. Just because you can collect enough people to say that Obama or anyone like him is a US citizen doesn't make him or them US citizens.

For anyone who actually cares about their own US citizenship and the citizens of any country where such a thing is respected, there simply is no other conclusion.
__________________
The United States of America is for citizens only! Everyone else OUT.
Criminalize asking party affilation for voter registration! End the "two party system"!
  #8  
Old 02-24-2010, 11:45 AM
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Cruisingfool Cruisingfool is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerailAmnesty.com View Post
You're right, insofar as your statement that Obama's father is not a U.S. citizen is concerned, that is. No one (to my knowledge) has ever claimed he was. That part is not your problem. What is your problem is federal law. You don't seem to understand it. I'll give you a reprint of much of what I posted last time you made this assertion (a post, I might add, to which you didn't respond):

That assertion is flat out wrong. You have misstated federal law pertaining to birthright citizenship ...

Not only is what you have stated inaccurate, it would be inaccurate if the law was modified in the fashion many border security activists would like to see undertaken. Currently, a child is legally a U.S. citizen if he is born on U.S. soil, regardless of his parents' unlawful residency status. Many individuals feel this is the result of a perversion/misinterpretation of the Civil War Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. They opine that a person should not receive legal residency if born in our country, if one or more parents is an illegal alien. Even under this formula, Barack Obama would be a citizen.



So I'll ask you again, Twoller. How does Obama's father's citizenship status prevent our current president from holding office?
Link
Tuesday, September 8, 2009
The Natural Born Citizen Clause of Our U.S. Constitution Requires that Both of the Child’s Parents Be U.S. Citizens At the Time of Birth
When interpreting the Constitution, we must decide whether we will look to the document as an original and static one whose meaning has already been established at a given time by the People and its Framers or one that is living and which can be changed over any given time by a court of law. See the address of Justice Antonin Scalia to the 2008 Annual National Lawyers Convention on November 22, 2008, at the Mayflower Hotel, in Washington, D.C. http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/...pub_detail.asp. (advocates originalism rather than living constitutionalism). I submit that Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause has a fixed and knowable meaning which was established at the time of its drafting and should therefore be interpreted through the eyes of the original Framers that drafted and ratified the clause so as to determine what they intended the clause to mean (original intent theory). I also submit that we should interpret the “natural born Citizen” clause in a way that reasonable persons living at the time of its adoption would have declared the ordinary meaning of the text to be (original meaning theory). This is not living constitutionalism but rather originalism or textualism as applied to interpreting the Constitution. It is this latter approach that I will utilize in this article.

E. Vattel stated in 1758, as translated into English in 1797: "The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country." E. Vattel, The Law of Nations or Principles of Natural Law, Sec. 212 Citizens and natives. In Footnote 1 at the end of Sec. 212, Vattel stated that “as a general rule” the child inherits his father’s citizenship, or his mother’s but only if she is not married.

The first thing that we have to understand about what Vattel wrote is that he made a distinction between a “citizen” and a “natural born Citizen.” A citizen is simply a member of the civil society who is bound to the society by certain duties and subject to its authority. “Citizens” also participate equally in all the advantages the society has to offer. On the other hand, a “natural born Citizen” means much more than just “citizen.” Vattel required that for a child to be a “natural born citizen,” or what he called in French in his 1758 first edition of The Law of Nations or Principles of Natural Law, les naturels, ou indigenes (the “natives or indigines”-The Venus, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253 (1814)), the child must be born in the country to both parents who are also citizens of the same country.

In the original French, Vattel wrote: "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays de parents citoyens,” meaning the "natives or indigines" are those born in the country of citizen parents. Both the Framers and later English translators of Vattel's treatise replaced the words"natural born Citizen" for the words "natives or indigenes." From Madison's notes, we see that there were some delegates who were concerned about foreigners. For example, from Max Farrand's transcripts of Madison's notes (August 9 and August 13, 1787), there is the following concerning the House of Representatives eligibility requirements: "Mr. Gerry wished that in future the eligibility might be confined to Natives." The word "native" occurs multiple times in the notes for these two days. (The phrase "natural born citizen" was not used here by the delegates.). The word "native" was a synonym for the phrase "natural born citizen." The delegates had already used the term “natural born citizen” when proposing the requirements for President, Vice President, and either House of Congress and later used the word “natives” when referring to eligibility requirements for the House of Representative. There is further evidence of this in at least three works: Blackstone's "Commentaries on the Laws of England" (see Book the First: The Rights of Persons; Chapter the Tenth: Of People, Whether Aliens, Denizens or Natives.), translations of Quintilian's "Institutio Oratoria", and the 1797 English edition of Vattel's "The Law of Nations or Principles of Natural Law."

In the beginning of his definition, Vattel required that the children be born of “parents” who are citizens. The use of the word “parents” refers to both mother and father. If he required only one parent such as the father, he would have said “of fathers who are citizens” and not “of parents who are citizens.” He did later refer to “fathers,” but only because wives automatically acquired the citizenship of their husbands the same way children did. This rule was carried into our own naturalization laws, wherein citizenship can be derived from a close relation. Historically, a number of U.S. laws have provided for the automatic naturalization of children or wives (not husbands) of naturalized U.S. citizens. In some periods of our history, these laws provided that married women derived citizenship from their husband and had no control over their status. Under the Act of 10 February 1855, a woman automatically became an American upon marrying a U.S. citizen or following the naturalization of her foreign husband. Kelly v. Owen, 74 U.S. 7 Wall. 496 (1868). The 1922 Married Women's Act (or the Cable Act) finally severed the link between naturalization and marital status for most women. Hence, if Vattel meant to focus only on “fathers,” he would have used “fathers” throughout his definition and never mentioned “parents” when he first defined “natural born Citizen,” for there would not have been any need to use the word “parents” when “fathers” would have sufficed. Hence, Vattel would have focused on the citizenship of the father since that citizenship would determine that of both the mother and child. It is also noteworthy that Vattel had no problem allowing the child to inherit the citizenship of the mother when the mother was not married to the child’s father. Given that Vattel in effect really focused on the citizenship of both the child’s father and mother in defining a “natural born Citizen,” Vattel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” does not violate the equal protection guarantee embedded in the Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause. Miller v. Albright, 523 U.S. 420 (1998); Nguyen v. INS, 533 U.S. 53, 121 S.Ct. 2053; 150 L.Ed.2d 115 (2001).

There is other evidence in his treatise that shows that Vattel meant to refer to both the child’s mother and father in his definition of a “natural born citizen.” When defining what a country is in Section 122, he stated the “term signifies the state, or even more particularly the town or place, where our parents had their fixed residence at the moment of our birth…. A man ought to preserve gratitude and affection for the state to which he is indebted for his education, and of which his parents were members when they gave him birth….” In commenting on the citizenship status of children born at sea at Section 216, he stated that a child born abroad a foreign vessel that is docked in a port belonging to their own nation is reputed born in the country, provided “she [the mother] and her husband have not quitted their native country to settle elsewhere.” In commenting upon vagrants in Section 219he stated: “Vagrants are people who have no settlement. Consequently those born of vagrant parents have no country, since a man’s country is the place where, at the time of his birth, his parents had their settlement (Section 122), or it is the state of which his father was then a member…” Given that Vattel in effect really focused on the citizenship of both the child’s father and mother in defining a “natural born Citizen,” Vattel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” does not violate the equal protection guarantee embedded in the Fifth Amendment's Due Process Clause. Miller v. Albright, 523 U.S. 420 (1998); Nguyen v. INS, 533 U.S. 53, 121 S.Ct. 2053; 150 L.Ed.2d 115 (2001).

The Framers were very familiar with William Blackstone. We can also see in the writings of Blackstone that the allegiance of both parents to the King was needed to avoid dual allegiance in the child. Blackstone wrote:
  #9  
Old 02-23-2010, 06:04 PM
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Cruisingfool Cruisingfool is offline
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Originally Posted by DerailAmnesty.com View Post
Why? I didn't say he was. In fact, I haven't represented anything about Obama, other than I can't keep track of all the theories/positions you birther types have been espousing here in support of your proposition.

Before CF climbed into the SOS campus clocktower and started spraying this thread with pump-action posts by the dozens (at which point I changed channels), from what I could gather, there were three essential points being made:


1. Obama was born outside the United States and is therefore ineligible to be President.

2. Obama never attended Columbia.

3. Whether or not Obama was born in Hawaii is irrelevant, because his father wasn't a U.S. citizen and, therefore, he shouldn't hold the presidency.

To a man, you Birther-ites agree that the former Senator from Illinois has no legal business occupying the White House. However, the assertions you folks roll out in support of your position are so varied, often times conflicting, and mostly requiring extensive conspiracies involving parties with wildly disparate interests to be accurate, that they strain the limits of credibility. Guys, you can't even agree on what the story is. So let me ask you, who really killed JFK? Was it the Cubans, the mob associates of Onassis or the CIA?
You have been asked many questions, at which you turn the whole subject around, and go on the same name calling (birthers) as PachoPatriot, RIMO, but not one of you have posted a legitimate response to any of thee questions.

So now we lead down the inferior road of "Conspiracy Theory".
  #10  
Old 02-23-2010, 07:26 PM
Rim05 Rim05 is offline
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You have been asked many questions, at which you turn the whole subject around, and go on the same name calling (birthers) as PachoPatriot, RIMO, but not one of you have posted a legitimate response to any of thee questions.
I have no plan to join in your rants. Barack Obama does not need me to argue for him and nothing anyone can say will change your mind. Good Bye.
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