Notice how many times you have used the word "Mexican". But this is entirely unnecessary. Try to strike the word "Mexican" from your vocabulary when confronting immigration problems and even though the problem is primarily from Mexicans, you will still have an effective voice against the basic problem. It is just as important to confront illegal immigrants from Ontario or Quebec or Russia or any other place besides Mexico.

See if you think this is still speaking firmly, aggressively and without apology:

"Illegal aliens are criminals who broke the law to take jobs, heathcare and education from American citizens. They are are transforming American cities into slums. Americans have a moral and legal right to defend American civilization from this destruction by people who have no right to be here."

"Illegal aliens should work hard creating a better life in their own land, not coming here and ruining ours."

"America has a right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. America has have as much right to defend against an immigrant invasion today as it did against threatened German and Japanese invasions in WW2. America was not obligated to surrender to Japan or Germany because most Japanese and Germans are 'hardworking people who want a better life.'"

"Illegal aliens are taking American jobs, bankrupting American Hospitals, degrading American public schools, and transforming American cities into filthy stinking slums. Illegal aliens are invaders who have no legal right to be here. They already have their own country and they should respect our right to have ours."

"It's wrong to force American workers to pay taxes to care for refugees."

What we need are some facts with hard numbers. Numbers such as "Last year illegals cost the taxpayer $???? for education in ??? county. Or "The cost of medical for one year in ???? county was ????. We need hard facts and legitimate sources to cite. Opinions are easy and we all have one, but to counter with accurate data that can be backed up is the best way to go. We need to accentuate the financial impact in both tax dollars used and job loss.

Illegal aliens from Ontario, Quebec or Russia? Are you nuts? Have you ever even seen any illegal aliens from those places? I haven't. We're being invaded by Mexicans, not by Russians or Canadians.

I am so sick of infiltrators who undermine resistance with these kinds of comments. You will never defeat an enemy if you don't identify them.We're being invaded and overrun by Mexican hordes, not Canadian or Russians.

We've identified all illegals as our enemy. There may be prime offenders, but that's not going to negate the offenses of the others. Yes, there are illegals from Canada. Illegal chinese, indian, and other nationals immigrate to Canada, and then legally enter the US with Canadian credentials. Then they stay illegally

Not just Chinese and Indians are the illegal immigrants from Canada. Canadians themselves immigrate illegally into the US too. I have seen it.

Yes, illegal immigrants are the enemy and anyone who tolerates illegal immigrants just because they are of European descent is an infiltrator and a subversive against the global struggle against that enemy.

The US is not the only country who is struggling against illegal immigrants. Every country has a right to protect itself against people coming into the country who are not citizens of that country. China, India, Russia and even Mexico have the right and should be encouraged to enforce that right and be able to beat back and beat down tides of people swarming into their country.

We should avoid declaring each other infiltrators so quickly. Our mission is to educate, and that means our own as well. I think it's best to try and bring people around first, and that's better accomplished without marginalizing them first.

Why quote me? I did not open the issue of "infiltrators".

This thread has gotten off topic. We need talking points with hard facts, figures and where they come from.

Here is an inflation calculator I found which might be handy:

For one trade in housing construction, $10.00 an hour was a good wage non union in California in 1980. So, to stay even, one would have to make $27.41.

However, I have seen adds in the paper, before the crash, for around $16.00 an hour.

And that's if you are GOOD.

I believe that quite a few illegals were working for less, but that's not a hard fact.

Union scale in that trade in 1981 added up to $16.00 and change an hour if health and welfare were added in (I believe the wage by itself was $11.00 +)

I believe scale (wage only) in 2005 was about $25.00.

Let's say wage only was $11.35 hr... $24.26 in 2005, so union kept up with wage only...

Non - Union from 1980 to 2005 @ $9.50 hr - 2005 would be $23.57 to stay even. That's a $7.57 hr difference.



It doesn't have a date on it but it's in California... Refers to Union Scale and non union wage:

I could be wrong, but I believe the non union wages cited are a tad high.

CA Wages, Brick Masons

union median range

New, no experience: $10.00 $9.00 – $10.00
New, experienced: $17.00 $12.00 – $30.00
3 yrs+ experience: $28.00 $25.00 – $38.00

CA Wages, Concreete & Terrazzo Finishers

nonunion median range

New, no experience: $12.08 $11.51 – $12.81
New, experienced: $16.97 $13.42 – $19.18
3 yrs+ experience: $19.46 $14.14 – $22.05

union median range

New, no experience: NA NA
New, experienced: $22.00 $19.00 – $23.00
3 yrs+ experience: $23.00 $21.00 – $26.00

CA Wages, Plasterers & Stucco Masons

union median range

New, no experience: $10.00 $6.00 – $20.00
New, experienced: $18.00 $13.00 – $20.00
3 yrs+ experience: $24.00 $20.00 – $24.00

Apprentices start at 65% of the basic journey rate and receive a 5% increase each six months until they reach 90% of the journey rate, as the apprentice completes the necessary course work and on-the-job training.

http://www.proteusinc.org/jobseekvid...eer/mason.html