We need talking points, give us your thoughts

[Jeanfromfillmore]

We need some talking points for the upcoming rally that members can use when being addressed by the media or others. Please give some suggestions, such as the financial impact with facts cited from reliable sources, or social impacts on neighborhoods such as crime.

Please participate because your input is important. Some of you live great distances from where we’re having the rally, but your input can still be used.

[ilbegone]

I don't have statistics at hand this moment, but:

The displacement of American workers in whole industries since the early 1980's. why real wages have fallen like a rock tossed into a well since the early 1980's.

Education, costs and results now vs. 1960's - what has changed and why.

Why is it that Utah spends the least on education with high results, and why California is cranking out illiterate kids with - regardless of what the CTA peddles - over half our runaway state budget going to education.

This would have to be nuanced - Elements of Mexican and Latin American cultures which, if not diluted and assimilated to a great degree, brings Latin American problems with them.

Such as: We at least have a pretension of blind justice in this country and a lot of times it works, but a Mexican will generally equate hiring an attorney with bribing the judge, as is the proper course in Mexico.

The Mexican system of "good old boy" "networking", nepotism, ubiquitous bribery and shake downs in general and the palm greasing necessary in order to do business, and general corruption in which embezzlement from public and private employers is considered to be deserved compensation. It leaves our ciminally bent scum in high places far behind in the dust.

Mexican fatalism and hopelessness for change imbedded within the culture and expressed through its citizens.

Welfare fraud and federal subsidization of illegality needs to be brought out as well, but how to do it without being characterized as foaming at the mouth bigots.

Perhaps pictures contrasting the homes of "Latino activist" legislators and others who live on the hill and run down barrios which they claim are "vibrant communities enriching America". Pre 1980 pictures depicting the change would probably be essential.

It would be interesting to see what sort of home Janet Murguia lives in and where: making her living peddling racial discord, I bet she doesn't live in the middle of what she insists is good for the rest of us. Nor do I believe she would actually enjoy it.

That might be a good exercise for other public and "activist" figures as well.

How about the the reality disconnect and real estate gulf that Barbara Boxer has between herself the average American Citizen - and the fact that she doesn't have to live with the results of her preferred immigration legislation.

I would like to see something which would show the difference between Mexican Nationals and those who pretend to be Mexican - and how many actually regard each other when no one else is around to see their dirt - but that truth would be hard to get across with the sheer mountain of propaganda which has been dispensed and digested over the last forty years and all the people who gain in some manner from perpetuating the myth.

[ilbegone]

Here is Murguia's official NCLR biography. She for sure doesn't slum around in San'tana.

She's probably as distant from Mexico as I am (white boy who grew up in California), and in the same reality disconnect as Boxer.

It's all about race.

Janet Murguía – President and CEO
Janet Murguía

As someone who has experienced the promise of the American Dream firsthand, Janet Murguia has devoted her career in public service to opening the door to that dream to millions of American families. Now, as a key figure among the next generation of leaders in the Latino community, she continues this mission as President and Chief Executive Officer of the National Council of La Raza (NCLR), the largest national Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization in the United States.

Since 2005, Murguía has sought to strengthen NCLR’s work and enhance its record of impact as a vital American institution. One of her first priorities was to harness the power of the nation’s nearly 50 million Hispanics and improve opportunities for Latino families by strengthening the partnership between NCLR and its network of nearly 300 community-based Affiliates which annually serve millions of people in 41 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico.

Murguía has also sought to strengthen the Latino voice on issues affecting the Hispanic community including education, health care, immigration, civil rights, the economy, and the rise of hate rhetoric and hate crimes targeting the Latino community. In her role as NCLR’s spokesperson, she has appeared on ABC World News Tonight, CBS Evening News, NBC Nightly News, NBC’s Today Show, CNN’s Larry King Live, PBS’s NewsHour with Jim Lehrer, CNN’s Anderson Cooper 360°, and CNN’s Lou Dobbs Tonight.

Murguía has placed special emphasis on turning Latino growth into empowerment through the Latino vote. In the 2008 election, NCLR along with its partners helped to register nearly 200,000 new Hispanic voters. Other initiatives and partnerships helped more than 1.5 million eligible immigrants apply for citizenship.

Murguía has also focused on strengthening NCLR’s relationship with sister civil rights and advocacy organizations. She has spearheaded efforts to build bridges between the African American and Latino communities in conjunction with organizations such as the NAACP and the National Urban League. She was the also first Hispanic leader to give the keynote speech at the annual Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Unity Breakfast in Birmingham, Alabama.

The visibility of Latinos in the media has also been a key concern for Murguía. Through her efforts at securing a host of new partners and resources, the NCLR ALMA Awards returned to television in 2006 after a three-year hiatus as part of NCLR’s strategy to promote fair, accurate, and balanced portrayals of Latinos in the entertainment industry.

Murguía is currently a board member of the Independent Sector, a coalition of leading nonprofits, foundations, and corporations. She is also an executive committee member of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights and serves on the board of the Hispanic Association on Corporate Responsibility and the National Hispanic Leadership Agenda.

Murguía has been recognized on numerous occasions for her work. She was featured in Newsweek magazine’s “Women and Leadership” issue, chosen as one of the NonProfit Times’ “Power and Influence Top 50” leaders and one of Washingtonian magazine’s “100 Most Powerful Women in Washington,” named to People en Español’s “100 Most Influential Hispanics,” and selected as one of Hispanic Business magazine’s “100 Most Influential Hispanics,” Hispanic magazine’s “Powerful Latinos,” Latino Leaders magazine’s “101 Top Leaders of the Hispanic Community,” and Poder magazine’s “The Poderosos 100.” In 2005, she received the KU Law Alumni Association Distinguished Alumnus/na Award.

Murguía began her career in Washington, DC as legislative counsel to former Kansas Congressman Jim Slattery. She then worked at the White House from 1994 to 2000, ultimately serving as deputy assistant to President Clinton, providing strategic and legislative advice to the president on key issues. She served as deputy director of legislative affairs, managing the legislative staff and acting as a senior White House liaison to Congress. She then served as deputy campaign manager and director of constituency outreach for the Gore/Lieberman presidential campaign. In 2001, Murguía joined the University of Kansas (KU) as executive vice chancellor for university relations, overseeing KU’s internal and external relations with the public, including governmental and public affairs.

Janet Murguía grew up in Kansas City, Kansas. She received three degrees from KU: a B.S. degree in journalism (1982), a B.A. degree in Spanish (1982), and a J.D. degree (1985) from the School of Law.

[Jeanfromfillmore]

Here is Murguia's official NCLR biography. She for sure doesn't slum around in San'tana.

She's probably as distant from Mexico as I am (white boy who grew up in California), and in the same reality disconnect as Boxer.

It's all about race.Where does she live now? Here are some stats from where she grew up, Kansas City, Kansas compared to East Los Angeles and Maywood. Even though Kansas City is a lower income area than the rest of the state of Kansas, it is way above what she supports in Los Angeles but not where she would live.

Races in Kansas City:
• White Non-Hispanic (48.9%)
• Black (30.1%)
• Hispanic (16.8%)
• Other race (8.6%)
• Two or more races (3.0%)
• American Indian (1.7%)
• Other Asian (1.1%)

Ancestries: German (11.5%), Irish (8.3%), United States (6.2%), English (4.8%), French (1.8%), Polish (1.3%).

Population density: 1147 people per square mile

(low)


• High school or higher: 73.4%
• Bachelor's degree or higher: 11.7%
• Graduate or professional degree: 4.3%
• Unemployed: 8.5%
• Mean travel time to work: 21.4 minutes
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2008: 20.9%

14,647 residents are foreign born (8.1% Latin America, 1.2% Asia).
This city: 10.0%

Kansas: 5.0%


Let’s compare that with East Los Angeles

Races in East Los Angeles:
• Hispanic (96.8%)
• Other race (54.0%)
• Two or more races (4.2%)
• White Non-Hispanic (1.8%)
• American Indian (1.7%)
•
Percentage of residents living in poverty in 2008: 25.5%

60,605 residents are foreign born (48.2% Latin America).
This place: 48.8%

California: 26.2%

Ancestries: United States (1.4%).

Population density: 17279 people per square mile

(very high).


Maywood, California

Races in Maywood:
• Hispanic (96.3%)
• Other race (50.5%)
• Two or more races (4.5%)
• White Non-Hispanic (2.6%)
• American Indian (1.4%)


Population density: 24007 people per square mile

(very high).
For population 25 years and over in Maywood

* High school or higher: 29.6%
* Bachelor's degree or higher: 2.3%
* Graduate or professional degree: 0.8%
* Unemployed: 11.4%
* Mean travel time to work: 29.2 minutes


Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/Maywood-California.html#ixzz0bEWmow2y



15,490 residents are foreign born (54.8% Latin America).
This city: 55.2%

California: 26.2%

Residents with income below the poverty level in 2008:
This city: 24.5%

Whole state: 14.2%

Residents with income below 50% of the poverty level in 2008:
This city: 8.5%

Whole state: 6.3%

This city: 4.3 people

California: 2.9 people

Percentage of family households:
This city: 88.1%

Whole state: 68.9%

Percentage of households with unmarried partners:
This city: 8.4%

Whole state: 5.9%

[ilbegone]

I haven't verified it, but this is supposed to be a Janet Murgia quote. If it really is, it just goes to show how whacked out a person can get:

“We want to make sure that everyone has access to the American dream. I think Los Angeles can lead the way. We have the opportunity. This is our moment.”

Janet Murguia quote
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/janet_murguia/

Murguia seems to agree that illegal immigration depresses wages and collection of taxes:

The solution we advocate is one that restores the rule of law that unites families,
that treats all workers fairly, and that puts people in the system and on the road to earn
citizenship.

This is comprehensive immigration reform in a nutshell. Comprehensive reform
will allow us to control our borders, bring 12 million workers out of the shadows, and
restore order, fairness, and balance to our immigration system.

And it will help all workers in this country by lifting wages, increasing tax
revenues, and creating a level playing field for workers and employers...



...We understand that a strong economic recovery is built on a platform of shared
prosperity, and immigration reform is part and parcel of that approach. When you have
a system in which 1 in 20 workers is susceptible to exploitation, it affects working
conditions for everyone. When you have a system where bad employers abuse
workers and avoid taxes, it undermines us all (the Congressional Budget Office has
estimated that previous reform proposals that would get people in the system would
have generated new revenue at the tune of $48 billion to $66 billion dollars).
And that is why we also need to make sure that we have a verification system
that helps crack down on these unscrupulous employers but we need to make sure that
it is a sound system. Because the only thing worse than no verification system is a
flawed one.


http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:m3UD3TORamwJ:gsi.stmary.edu/pdf/JM_STMARYS_PEECHAPR_0409.pdf+Janet+Murguia+Parents&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbQgjtsLNgvULLtjoNOns6aabZtMnw


And it seems she is aware of some of the other problems:

But new data from the Population Reference Bureau paint a sad mosaic for the future of these kids, one that shows up to 44% of all U.S. children living in poverty in 2030 to be Hispanic. That future is not so hard to believe when we consider the current predicament of Latino kids.

Today, more than one-fourth of Latino children live in poverty. Three-fifths live in low-income families. More than one-fourth of Latino four-year-olds are not enrolled in early childhood education programs. Almost one-fifth have difficulty speaking English. One in five does not have health insurance. About two out of every five teens and preteens are obese or overweight. Only 55% graduate from high school. And Latino youth are overrepresented in the juvenile justice system and adult jails.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/janet-murguia/an-entire-generation-at-s_b_335933.html

It seems Murguia lives in Washington DC, and spends a lot of time on airplanes.

She also had something to do with producing Desperate Housewives as well as everything else she has her fingers into..

[ilbegone]

Another article about Murguia.

Clearing a Path From Barrio to Boardroom


The head of the National Council of La Raza wants other Latinos to have the same chance she did to work her way from poverty to success.


July 20, 2006

Teresa Watanabe, Times Staff Writer

Janet Murguia grew up on bologna and powdered milk, sleeping five to a room in a tiny Kansas City, Kan., home with mismatched furniture and plastic curtains.

Her parents, one a Mexican immigrant and the other the son of one, never managed to advance beyond seventh grade. But they knew the value of education enough to pinch pennies for a set of encyclopedias.

Her church provided a spiritual compass and close-knit community of mostly Mexican immigrants and their children.

Those values honoring education, family and faith, Murguia said, helped lift her out of her barrio and onto a fast track of law school, the Clinton White House and now presidency of one of the nation's largest Latino advocacy organizations. Three of her six siblings also went to law school; two are federal judges.

Now, as president and CEO of the National Council of La Raza, Murguia said she wants to make such dreams accessible to all.

"There's no question in my mind that the strong values instilled by my parents -- faith, family, community, hard work and optimism -- are the pillars that allowed us to be successful," said Murguia, 45. "It's what inspires me to be at the helm of this organization today: to throw open the doors of the American Dream to everyone, including the Latino community."

In Los Angeles last week for the council's annual conference, Murguia shared her life story and vision for the organization, which claims 40,000 members and a network of 300 affiliated community organizations.

Murguia, who was selected last year, inherits an organization with a mixed reputation within the diverse Latino community. Supporters praise its effective advocacy work and access to political and corporate power brokers, while critics regard it as an elitist organization whose "cocktail activism" is disconnected from the Latino masses.

Some Latinos picketed La Raza's conference last week, protesting the organization's support of a compromise Senate immigration bill that provides a guest worker program and path to legalization for some but not all of the nation's estimated 11.5 million illegal immigrants.

One of the protesters, Nativo Lopez of the Mexican American Political Assn., asserted that La Raza's significant corporate funding had crippled its ability to project a powerful voice on behalf of the poor. The Senate bill, he said, will serve U.S. corporate desires for cheap labor but slam the door to citizenship to millions of Latinos.

"The National Council of La Raza is the premier organization involved in a betrayal of the immigrant community," Lopez said. "They are a Trojan horse for corporate America in the Latino community."

Others praised the council for effective lobbying that has helped, among other things, protect bilingual programs, strengthen immigrant rights and restore federal funding for welfare and educational benefits to the poor.

"They are very much part of the White House, inside-the-Beltway world where you have to make compromises. From the outside, it sometimes looks like they're selling out," said Lisa Garcia Bedolla, a UC Irvine associate professor of political science and Chicano/Latino studies. "But the expectations for NCLR are too high. I don't think any single organization can do everything they're being asked to do."

For her part, Murguia said she was eager to listen to all voices -- supporters and critics, Republicans and Democrats, corporate presidents and undocumented workers.

"I believe in an open-tent approach," Murguia said. "If we're going to sit and throw rocks at everyone we don't agree with, we won't get anything done."

Murguia said corporations, foundations and the federal government each contribute roughly one-third of La Raza's $25-million annual operating budget.

The value of corporate partnerships, she said, was evident at last week's conference, where La Raza announced a breakthrough agreement on Latino healthcare. Concerned with rising neural tube defects among Latino babies, the organization had appealed to corn flour producers to fortify the product with folic acid to help prevent them. Thanks to La Raza's relationship with Wal-Mart -- one of the nation's largest purchasers of corn flour -- the retail giant helped broker a fortification agreement with a major flour producer, Murguia said.

But Murguia acknowledged the need to build visibility and connections with Latinos on a grass-roots level -- one of her top priorities, she said. One of her first actions was to take a "listening tour" of La Raza's community affiliates, all of whom clamored for stronger ties, she said. The council offers funding, training and other support to the affiliates, which focus on health, education, housing, economic development and other needs.

Despite the strong sense of "personal responsibility" among Latinos, she said, the community still needed public and private support to break down barriers to opportunity.

Murguia, who sports a broad smile, elegant pantsuits and short, coiffed hair, said public services -- transportation, schools and libraries -- were critical to her family's success.

Her father was an Oklahoma native who migrated back to Mexico as a boy and returned to Kansas City with his Mexican wife in 1950. He worked in a nearby steel mill; his wife watched neighborhood children to bring in extra income.

The close-knit Mexican American community celebrated Roman Catholic feast days and summer fiestas, and helped each other out when food ran short. Despite the tight household budget, Murguia said she never went wanting.

And every night, the linoleum table was cleared for homework. Education, her parents said, took priority over chores -- perhaps one reason she studied so hard, Murguia joked.

"They always knew the importance of education," Murguia said. "They knew they didn't have it, but knew it was the key to the future for their kids."

She and her twin sister Mary earned near-perfect high school grades, except for one B in vocational typing. When they entered the University of Kansas, they high-fived each other when they realized the spacious dorm room was theirs alone. Both went on to law school.

After graduation, Murguia worked for a Kansas congressman and was "flabbergasted" when the Clinton White House tapped her to work in its legislative affairs office in 1994. She was serving as a University of Kansas executive vice chancellor for university relations when she was named La Raza's executive director in 2004 and then, last year, selected president by the board of directors.

Along the way, Murguia has never forgotten the people who helped her, who "earned their way into Heaven," as her mother often put it. They include her elementary school teachers and college financial aid assistance officer, whom Murguia said cobbled together every loan, grant and scholarship program he could think of to make sure she could finish school.

"I've seen the American dream be a reality, and I want to make sure we can make it a reality for others as well," she said.

[Jeanfromfillmore]

• "The U.S. Census Bureau showed that the nation's immigrant population (legal and illegal) reached nearly 38 million in March 2007, one-third of which are comprised of illegal immigrants."
(Center for Immigration Studies).

"There are approximately 7.7 million illegal aliens employed in U.S. jobs in 2008."
(NumbersUSA).

"A 1997 study by the American Academy of Sciences found that the cheap labor of illegal immigrants and poor immigrants caused a 44% decrease in wages among the poorest Americans from 1980 to 1994."
(Center for Immigration Studies).

• "Amnesty for illegal immigrants will cause costs to increase significantly from $10.4 billion a year to $28.8 billion. This is because an amnesty program would transform an illegal immigrant to an "unskilled immigrant with legal status" who could access various government programs. However, due to low income, these "unskilled immigrants with legal status" would likely make very modest tax payments."
(Center for Immigration Studies).

• "Tax payments in illegal households are only 28% of other households primarily due to much lower levels in education, which subsequently results in low incomes and even lower tax payments."
(Center for Immigration Studies).

• "A strategy of attrition through enforcement, which includes mandatory workplace verification and measures to curb misuse of Social Security numbers, could reduce the illegal population by as many as 1.5 million illegal immigrants each year."
(Center for Immigration Studies).

• " Illegal immigrants collectively represent a group that is a significant menace to the public. 80% have committed serious crimes in addition to immigration violations, and 40% have violent crime histories."
(Center for Immigration Studies).
• "25-50% of all gangsters arrested in the criminal gang suppression efforts in northern and western Virginia are estimated to be illegal immigrants."
(Study for Immigration Studies).

More found here:
http://www.endillegalimmigration.com/Illegal_Immigration_Facts_&_Statistics/index.shtml

[Twoller]

Here is some information on Murguia at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Murgu%C3%ADa

I think it is a poor strategy to confront personalities at public rallies, especially when all they represent is some leadership in some opposition organization.

This rally would be a good time and place to remind everyone that this immigration issue is not strictly a Mexican problem, but a problem from all different countries encompasing all different races, Europeans as well. And also it is a problem causing suffering in other countries besides the US and European countries as well. This would completely disarm the race baiting Reconquistas and leave them carrying water for people outside their organization -- people who are not latinos -- and people in other countries. The more you emphasize the universal nature of the problem, the more pointless the attendence of people from the NCLR will be, since they will be the only people who show up in support of illegal immigration. Everybody else will be getting a free ride from them. And any efforts on their parts to pick up the slack from anyone else is bound to carry them into the issue of terrorism from immigrant communities, something they will most certainly want to be avoiding.

A little news item to meditate on:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8435857.stm

Yet another person from a Muslim country abuses some country's vital gun laws, this time it is personal not religious, but who can tell the difference any more?

[DerailAmnesty.com]

Interesting exercise - Go to this url: www.janetmurguia.com

[Twoller]

Interesting exercise - Go to this url: www.janetmurguia.com

That's a pretty nice site. Did you know that if you have the ability to run MySQL and PHP on your server, you can host a forum almost exactly like this one?

This site is hosted on an old Dell Optiplex in my home:

http://declinetostate.dyndns.org/

I don't always leave the thing on, so you may not find it and it's not getting much business anyway. But it gives you an idea of what is possible. The software for the site is phpBB.

[Jeanfromfillmore]

This thread is for talking points. What we need are facts with numbers and data that can be used by those attending if asked why they are there. We don't want anyone talking to the media except those designated to do so. Which will be those who are speaking at the rally. Another suggestion is that Naui is to be completely ignored, and I mean completely.

[ilbegone]

I think it is a poor strategy to confront personalities at public rallies, especially when all they represent is some leadership in some opposition organization.



It might be percieved that way, but I'm not really interested in a personal attack.

The idea is to show the disconnect with reality on an average person's level.

Murguia doesn't seem to me to have much more of a personal connection with contemporary illegals than I do - her background, parents emphasizing education, accomplishments, all that high dollar traveling, the style in which she lives, where she lives...

She doesn't wait for the bus on Roscoe and Van Nuys at six o clock every morning.

And her parents might have even emphasized English - like some Hispanics of older families I know. One of her degrees is in Spanish Language. Why go through all that trouble if she was fluent and not obsessed about race equaling culture, language, and the rest of it?

Her background is not typical of the average child of illegal aliens over the last thirty years or so. What does she really know about the grit of the contemporary barrio? I don't believe she has time in her schedule to do more than listen to a few hyped stories and shake hands while kissing two or three baby's, then it's off to the next speech, fund gathering, or political arm twisting.

And yet her major preoccupation is about race and victimization concerning people whose Mexico is not the Mexico of her parent's memories. And the memories of any of those people are not her memories, she's just borrowing second hand perception as well as borrowing foreign nationality.

An extensive education, an obsessed life mission, and political connections out the wazoo.

She might have been on a totally different path in life if it had been not been for Mecha and Chicano studies in her education.

[Twoller]

It might be percieved that way, but I'm not really interested in a personal attack.

The idea is to show the disconnect with reality on an average person's level.

Murguia doesn't seem to me to have much more of a personal connection with contemporary illegals than I do - her background, parents emphasizing education, accomplishments, all that high dollar traveling, the style in which she lives, where she lives...

....

An extensive education, an obsessed life mission, and political connections out the wazoo.

She might have been on a totally different path in life if it had been not been for Mecha and Chicano studies in her education.

"We clean your toilets." Right? They should have said "They clean our toilets. And there is no way we are going to clean our own."

It sounds like you are making observations about her and illegals that are a closs parallel to Obama and African Americans. It's almost like there is a pattern or template.

But is Marguia really a good talking point for this rally, or any rally? Is this really a defensive reaction against all this strife we have been hearing from the Minutemen and SOS itself? That might be a little shallow and obvious.

[ilbegone]

"We clean your toilets." Right? They should have said "They clean our toilets. And there is no way we are going to clean our own."

It sounds like you are making observations about her and illegals that are a closs parallel to Obama and African Americans. It's almost like there is a pattern or template.

But is Marguia really a good talking point for this rally, or any rally? Is this really a defensive reaction against all this strife we have been hearing from the Minutemen and SOS itself? That might be a little shallow and obvious.

It's not my rally nor am I desiring to hijack the theme of a rally. Nor is it my purpose to hijack this thread or get in a pissing match with you about it.

There are quite a few facts and figures I have presented in the past concerning education of the children of illegals and other situations concerning illegals. The organizer of the rally moved them from another site to this site.

It's a rally concerning illegal immigration, not Murguia. No one has to even bring up Murguia's name. However, even though disconnected from the reality of illegal immigration, she nevertheless sees much of what we do - with a whacked out race based solution which is unworkable and wastes my tax dollars.

Murgia is also an example of how obsession for a cause defeats the desired results of a cause. There's lots of answers to questions one could derive from Murguia and those like her, including their quotes.

**

You completely lost me on the bit about strife, and this is not the thread to be bringing it up.

[Don]

I think it is important to speak firmly, aggressively and without apology for America's right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. Too many Americans have a whiny, apologetic tone. Try these:



"Illegal aliens are criminals who broke the law to take jobs, heathcare and education from American citizens. They are are transforming American cities into Mexican slums. Americans have a moral and legal right to defend American civilization from this destruction by people who have no right to be here."

"Illegal aliens should work hard creating a better life in their own land, not coming here and ruining ours."

"America has a right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. America has have as much right to defend against a Mexican invasion today as it did against threatened German and Japanese invasions in WW2. America was not obligated to surrender to Japan or Germany because most Japanese and Germans are 'hardworking people who want a better life.' America is not obligated to surrender to Mexican conquest today. "

"Illegal aliens are taking American jobs, bankrupting American Hospitals, degrading American public schools, and transforming American cities into filthy stinking Mexican slums. Illegal aliens are invaders who have no legal right to be here. They already have their own country and they should respect our right to have ours."

"Mexico is a large wealthy country and it's wrong to force American workers to pay taxes to care for Mexican refugees."

[Rim05]

Another suggestion is that Naui is to be completely ignored, and I mean completely.


That should be rule #1.

[Jeanfromfillmore]

That should be rule #1.Yes Rimo, you're correct, so it is now rule number 1.


Official rule number 1 is Naui is to be completely ignored, no if ands or buts.

[Rim05]

ATTA GIRL JEAN. First New Years Rule. :):)

[Twoller]

If you can't resist from repeating the little roach's name, then you are not ignoring him.

[Eagle1]

Agreed! I hope we can get everyone else to not speak a word to that damned butt bug!:D

[Twoller]

I think it is important to speak firmly, aggressively and without apology for America's right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. Too many Americans have a whiny, apologetic tone. Try these:



"Illegal aliens are criminals who broke the law to take jobs, heathcare and education from American citizens. They are are transforming American cities into Mexican slums. Americans have a moral and legal right to defend American civilization from this destruction by people who have no right to be here."

"Illegal aliens should work hard creating a better life in their own land, not coming here and ruining ours."

"America has a right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. America has have as much right to defend against a Mexican invasion today as it did against threatened German and Japanese invasions in WW2. America was not obligated to surrender to Japan or Germany because most Japanese and Germans are 'hardworking people who want a better life.' America is not obligated to surrender to Mexican conquest today. "

"Illegal aliens are taking American jobs, bankrupting American Hospitals, degrading American public schools, and transforming American cities into filthy stinking Mexican slums. Illegal aliens are invaders who have no legal right to be here. They already have their own country and they should respect our right to have ours."

"Mexico is a large wealthy country and it's wrong to force American workers to pay taxes to care for Mexican refugees."

Notice how many times you have used the word "Mexican". But this is entirely unnecessary. Try to strike the word "Mexican" from your vocabulary when confronting immigration problems and even though the problem is primarily from Mexicans, you will still have an effective voice against the basic problem. It is just as important to confront illegal immigrants from Ontario or Quebec or Russia or any other place besides Mexico.

See if you think this is still speaking firmly, aggressively and without apology:

"Illegal aliens are criminals who broke the law to take jobs, heathcare and education from American citizens. They are are transforming American cities into slums. Americans have a moral and legal right to defend American civilization from this destruction by people who have no right to be here."

"Illegal aliens should work hard creating a better life in their own land, not coming here and ruining ours."

"America has a right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. America has have as much right to defend against an immigrant invasion today as it did against threatened German and Japanese invasions in WW2. America was not obligated to surrender to Japan or Germany because most Japanese and Germans are 'hardworking people who want a better life.'"

"Illegal aliens are taking American jobs, bankrupting American Hospitals, degrading American public schools, and transforming American cities into filthy stinking slums. Illegal aliens are invaders who have no legal right to be here. They already have their own country and they should respect our right to have ours."

"It's wrong to force American workers to pay taxes to care for refugees."

[Jeanfromfillmore]

What we need are some facts with hard numbers. Numbers such as "Last year illegals cost the taxpayer $???? for education in ??? county. Or "The cost of medical for one year in ???? county was ????. We need hard facts and legitimate sources to cite. Opinions are easy and we all have one, but to counter with accurate data that can be backed up is the best way to go. We need to accentuate the financial impact in both tax dollars used and job loss.

[Don]

Notice how many times you have used the word "Mexican". But this is entirely unnecessary. Try to strike the word "Mexican" from your vocabulary when confronting immigration problems and even though the problem is primarily from Mexicans, you will still have an effective voice against the basic problem. It is just as important to confront illegal immigrants from Ontario or Quebec or Russia or any other place besides Mexico.

See if you think this is still speaking firmly, aggressively and without apology:

"Illegal aliens are criminals who broke the law to take jobs, heathcare and education from American citizens. They are are transforming American cities into slums. Americans have a moral and legal right to defend American civilization from this destruction by people who have no right to be here."

"Illegal aliens should work hard creating a better life in their own land, not coming here and ruining ours."

"America has a right to exist and defend itself against foreign invasion. America has have as much right to defend against an immigrant invasion today as it did against threatened German and Japanese invasions in WW2. America was not obligated to surrender to Japan or Germany because most Japanese and Germans are 'hardworking people who want a better life.'"

"Illegal aliens are taking American jobs, bankrupting American Hospitals, degrading American public schools, and transforming American cities into filthy stinking slums. Illegal aliens are invaders who have no legal right to be here. They already have their own country and they should respect our right to have ours."

"It's wrong to force American workers to pay taxes to care for refugees."

Illegal aliens from Ontario, Quebec or Russia? Are you nuts? Have you ever even seen any illegal aliens from those places? I haven't. We're being invaded by Mexicans, not by Russians or Canadians.

I am so sick of infiltrators who undermine resistance with these kinds of comments. You will never defeat an enemy if you don't identify them.We're being invaded and overrun by Mexican hordes, not Canadian or Russians.

[Ayatollahgondola]

Illegal aliens from Ontario, Quebec or Russia? Are you nuts? Have you ever even seen any illegal aliens from those places? I haven't. We're being invaded by Mexicans, not by Russians or Canadians.

I am so sick of infiltrators who undermine resistance with these kinds of comments. You will never defeat an enemy if you don't identify them.We're being invaded and overrun by Mexican hordes, not Canadian or Russians.

We've identified all illegals as our enemy. There may be prime offenders, but that's not going to negate the offenses of the others. Yes, there are illegals from Canada. Illegal chinese, indian, and other nationals immigrate to Canada, and then legally enter the US with Canadian credentials. Then they stay illegally

[Twoller]

Illegal aliens from Ontario, Quebec or Russia? Are you nuts? Have you ever even seen any illegal aliens from those places? I haven't. We're being invaded by Mexicans, not by Russians or Canadians.

I am so sick of infiltrators who undermine resistance with these kinds of comments. You will never defeat an enemy if you don't identify them.We're being invaded and overrun by Mexican hordes, not Canadian or Russians.

We've identified all illegals as our enemy. There may be prime offenders, but that's not going to negate the offenses of the others. Yes, there are illegals from Canada. Illegal chinese, indian, and other nationals immigrate to Canada, and then legally enter the US with Canadian credentials. Then they stay illegally

Not just Chinese and Indians are the illegal immigrants from Canada. Canadians themselves immigrate illegally into the US too. I have seen it.

Yes, illegal immigrants are the enemy and anyone who tolerates illegal immigrants just because they are of European descent is an infiltrator and a subversive against the global struggle against that enemy.

The US is not the only country who is struggling against illegal immigrants. Every country has a right to protect itself against people coming into the country who are not citizens of that country. China, India, Russia and even Mexico have the right and should be encouraged to enforce that right and be able to beat back and beat down tides of people swarming into their country.

[admin]

Yes, illegal immigrants are the enemy and anyone who tolerates illegal immigrants just because they are of European descent is an infiltrator and a subversive against the global struggle against that enemy.

We should avoid declaring each other infiltrators so quickly. Our mission is to educate, and that means our own as well. I think it's best to try and bring people around first, and that's better accomplished without marginalizing them first.

[Twoller]

We should avoid declaring each other infiltrators so quickly. Our mission is to educate, and that means our own as well. I think it's best to try and bring people around first, and that's better accomplished without marginalizing them first.

....

I am so sick of infiltrators who undermine resistance with these kinds of comments. You will never defeat an enemy if you don't identify them.We're being invaded and overrun by Mexican hordes, not Canadian or Russians.

Why quote me? I did not open the issue of "infiltrators".

[Jeanfromfillmore]

This thread has gotten off topic. We need talking points with hard facts, figures and where they come from.

[ilbegone]

Here is an inflation calculator I found which might be handy:

http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm

For one trade in housing construction, $10.00 an hour was a good wage non union in California in 1980. So, to stay even, one would have to make $27.41.

However, I have seen adds in the paper, before the crash, for around $16.00 an hour.

And that's if you are GOOD.

I believe that quite a few illegals were working for less, but that's not a hard fact.

Union scale in that trade in 1981 added up to $16.00 and change an hour if health and welfare were added in (I believe the wage by itself was $11.00 +)

I believe scale (wage only) in 2005 was about $25.00.

Let's say wage only was $11.35 hr... $24.26 in 2005, so union kept up with wage only...

Non - Union from 1980 to 2005 @ $9.50 hr - 2005 would be $23.57 to stay even. That's a $7.57 hr difference.



It doesn't have a date on it but it's in California... Refers to Union Scale and non union wage:

I could be wrong, but I believe the non union wages cited are a tad high.

CA Wages, Brick Masons

union median range

New, no experience: $10.00 $9.00 – $10.00
New, experienced: $17.00 $12.00 – $30.00
3 yrs+ experience: $28.00 $25.00 – $38.00

CA Wages, Concreete & Terrazzo Finishers

nonunion median range

New, no experience: $12.08 $11.51 – $12.81
New, experienced: $16.97 $13.42 – $19.18
3 yrs+ experience: $19.46 $14.14 – $22.05

union median range

New, no experience: NA NA
New, experienced: $22.00 $19.00 – $23.00
3 yrs+ experience: $23.00 $21.00 – $26.00

CA Wages, Plasterers & Stucco Masons

union median range

New, no experience: $10.00 $6.00 – $20.00
New, experienced: $18.00 $13.00 – $20.00
3 yrs+ experience: $24.00 $20.00 – $24.00

Apprentices start at 65% of the basic journey rate and receive a 5% increase each six months until they reach 90% of the journey rate, as the apprentice completes the necessary course work and on-the-job training.

http://www.proteusinc.org/jobseekvid/calcareer/mason.html