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Jeanfromfillmore
03-21-2011, 01:11 PM
Obama’s War in Libya is Illegal and Unconstitutional

By Cliff Kincaid | March 20, 2011
On CNN’s “Reliable Sources” show on Sunday, host Howard Kurtz asked, “One major question about the assault on Libya, what happened to the media’s skepticism?” He’s right, but his comparison to the war in Iraq was wrong. The correct parallel is President Bill Clinton’s illegal and unconstitutional military intervention in the civil war in Kosovo, then a province of Serbia. Serbia, like Libya today, did not present a threat to the U.S., but in both cases Democratic presidents went to war with those nations anyway, in order to strengthen international organizations.
What the media are missing is the fact that Obama’s war on Libya has no basis in law or the U.S. Constitution. He has decided to wage this war on his own with the authorization of the United Nations, not the U.S. Congress.
The conservative Washington Times has it right. In an editorial headlined, “Obama’s illegal war. Congress, not the U.N., should authorize force against Libya,” the paper said, “Removing Moammar Gadhafi from power would probably advance the cause of freedom, but the United Nations has no legal authority to take a step of this magnitude. By bowing to the will of the U.N. Security Council, President Obama is diluting the sovereign power of the United States.”
It’s true that President Reagan attacked Libya in 1986. But that was retaliation in self-defense, which is always reserved for the Commander-in-Chief, after evidence showed that the Gaddafi regime had attacked and killed Americans in Germany through a terrorist bombing.
“Today,” Obama said on March 19, “I authorized the Armed Forces of the United States to begin a limited military action in Libya in support of an international effort to protect Libyan civilians. That action has now begun. In this effort, the United States is acting with a broad coalition that is committed to enforcing United Nations Security Council Resolution 1973, which calls for the protection of the Libyan people.”
Obama said, “I’ve acted after consulting with my national security team, and Republican and Democratic leaders of Congress. And in the coming hours and days, my administration will keep the American people fully informed. But make no mistake: Today we are part of a broad coalition. We are answering the calls of a threatened people. And we are acting in the interests of the United States and the world.”
The President has no such “authorization” from Congress and consultation with Congress is not sufficient under the Constitution.
This announcement followed a February 25 executive order declaring Libya “an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States,” which is ludicrous on its face. Obama then declared “a national emergency to deal with that threat.”
All of this happened without any critical comment from the media. Indeed, the media called for Obama and the “international community” to do something.
Even a prominent media watchdog like Howard Kurtz, while criticizing the media for not asking the right questions, asks the wrong questions and comes to the wrong conclusions.
On CNN, Howard Kurtz said, “U.S. warplanes hitting targets in Libya for a second day today. And I have to say this at the outset—the media get excited by war, the journalistic adrenaline starts pumping as we talk about warships and warplanes and cruise missiles, and we put up the maps and we have the retired generals on. And sometimes something is lost in that initial excitement.”
But then he went on a tangent: “It reminds me of eight years ago this very weekend, when Shock and Awe was rained down upon Baghdad and the media utterly failed to ask skeptical questions.”
The difference is that Congress authorized the invasion of Iraq after a debate. Congress has not authorized the war on Libya.
Strangely, House Speaker John Boehner does not seem to recognize how his constitutional authority and the sovereignty of the United States are being undermined.
In a statement, he said, “The United States has a moral obligation to stand with those who seek freedom from oppression and self-government for their people. It’s unacceptable and outrageous for Qadhafi to attack his own people, and the violence must stop. The President is the commander-in-chief, but the Administration has a responsibility to define for the American people, the Congress, and our troops what the mission in Libya is, better explain what America’s role is in achieving that mission, and make clear how it will be accomplished. Before any further military commitments are made, the Administration must do a better job of communicating to the American people and to Congress about our mission in Libya and how it will be achieved.”
To repeat: simply being the commander-in-Chief does not allow the President to wage an offensive war on a country that does not threaten the United States.
We at AIM were similarly critical of the media for failing to raise these issues when Clinton went to war in Kosovo. That case was even worse than Libya because the U.N. did not authorize the military intervention there. Clinton used NATO rather than the U.N. But NATO, which came into being through a treaty as a defensive military force, had been illegally transformed without the benefit of a treaty into an offensive military force.
To make matters worse, Clinton intervened on behalf of the Muslim terrorists in the Kosovo Liberation Army against the Christian Serbs. The result was creation of a Muslim state, Kosovo, in the heart of Europe.
Obama’s agenda in Libya is the enforcement of the U.N.’s so-called “Responsibility to Protect” doctrine, whereby nations work through the U.N. to intervene in the internal affairs of member states. The “Responsibility to Protect” was mostly the work of the World Federalist Movement, a group dedicated to world government by strengthening the United Nations system.
U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 on Libya calls for a no-fly zone and reiterates a “Responsibility to Protect” through explicit language on the “protection of civilians” against the regime.
U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called the resolution “historic,” which is correct, and noted that it “affirms, clearly and unequivocally, the international community’s determination to fulfill its responsibility to protect civilians from violence perpetrated upon them by their own government.”
It sounds like a New World Order.
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obama%E2%80%99s-war-in-libya-is-illegal-and-unconstitutional/

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 08:29 PM
How many of our foreign expeditions in the last 230 years have had snowy white constitutional backing? Probably not the majority by any yard stick.

So instead of pretending to be virtuous on either side of the issue my belief in international affairs is "Don't play games".

Gadhafi was warned by Reagan thirty years ago. Fly a cruise missile up his ass and be done with it without killing thousands of Libyans while squandering untold billions of dollars we don't have.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 09:49 PM
Gadhafi was warned by Reagan thirty years ago. Fly a cruise missile up his ass and be done with it without killing thousands of Libyans while squandering untold billions of dollars we don't have.

The plan(s) as I see them, are to instigate a rebellion under the guise of fighting for democracy or deposing a tyrant dictator. During the process, arm both sides for profit, and then go in after they decimate each other and bring in new meat to make up for all the losses. The diktater is deposed or dead, the rebels are mostly slaughtered during the battles (thanks to your intervention at the right moments) and the area is ripe for development of your interests

The formalities of declaring war have become a whole lot less formal now. Just a tip of the sceptor I guess. But who is really boss? Can't be that long legged hope-n-change sock puppet in the whitehouse. He's not the type.

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 10:04 PM
The plan(s) as I see them, are to instigate a rebellion under the guise of fighting for democracy or deposing a tyrant dictator. During the process, arm both sides for profit, and then go in after they decimate each other and bring in new meat to make up for all the losses. The diktater is deposed or dead, the rebels are mostly slaughtered during the battles (thanks to your intervention at the right moments) and the area is ripe for development of your interests

The formalities of declaring war have become a whole lot less formal now. Just a tip of the sceptor I guess. But who is really boss? Can't be that long legged hope-n-change sock puppet in the whitehouse. He's not the type. Obama can't duck it without looking even more impotent and irrelevant than he did day before yesterday.

I don't know what the deal really is, none of those United Nations blowhards are denouncing all the sub Saharan mass murdering going on for decades in fourth world African countries with little readily exploitable resources... all Libya has is sand, Arabized northern Africans, a crazed lunatic in charge, and oil.

And Obama isn't interested in oil... unless it's eight dollars a gallon for 87 octane down the street at the corner gas station.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 10:31 PM
... all Libya has is sand, Arabized northern Africans, a crazed lunatic in charge, and oil.

It's also a beachhead, and a domino

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 10:47 PM
It's also a beachhead, and a domino

Sincere question, a beach head and domino to exactly what?

Don't we have enough of that in Iraq?

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 10:51 PM
Sincere question, a beach head and domino to exactly what?

Don't we have enough of that in Iraq?We're not in Iraq anymore. The puppet regime is set up there already. So now we need another place to stage the forces until the next big slice of cheese can be cut..Iran

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 11:02 PM
We're not in Iraq anymore. The puppet regime is set up there already. So now we need another place to stage the forces until the next big slice of cheese can be cut..Iran

Go to Fort Irwin or Camp Wilson at Twenty Nine palms and convince those about to ship out that we don't have a presence in Iraq.

Besides, Iran is sandwiched between Iraq and Afghanistan. Libya is several nations by land and a couple of stretches of water and two sand filled countries full of hostile inhabitants away from Iran.

I'm not getting it.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 11:12 PM
Go to Fort Irwin or Camp Wilson at Twenty Nine palms and convince those about to ship out that we don't have a presence in Iraq.

Besides, Iran is sandwiched between Iraq and Afghanistan. Libya is several nations by land and a couple of stretches of water and two sand filled countries full of hostile inhabitants away from Iran.

I'm not getting it.

Iraq is like Korea. we have forces there, but no war to justify sending aircraft carriers to

Invading Iran from Iraq would likely leave our butts hanging out in a not-quite-trustworthy government there. With libya and a host of other nations still in the arab camp, what's to prevent a coalition of arabic dictators from attacking the US once it has shaken the Iranian serpent. No; I see strategic planning here. Pacify a few, invade a few; destabilize a few. No one to flank us then

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 11:23 PM
Iraq is like Korea. we have forces there, but no war to justify sending aircraft carriers to

Invading Iran from Iraq would likely leave our butts hanging out in a not-quite-trustworthy government there. With libya and a host of other nations still in the arab camp, what's to prevent a coalition of arabic dictators from attacking the US once it has shaken the Iranian serpent. No; I see strategic planning here. Pacify a few, invade a few; destabilize a few. No one to flank us then

What's to stop them from getting together and attacking us now?

They hate each other, some have an interest in selling us overpriced oil while worming us into position to do their dirty work on our dime while pointing fingers at "aggressor Americans"

Their collective leadership consists of thuggish calculating assholes who can't field an effective army, but egg their citizens on against us just enough to take domestic attention off their corrupt dictatorships. And our government generally kisses their asses.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 11:26 PM
What's to stop them from getting together and attacking us now?.
Incentive. Give them a reason for holy war, and that will unite the lot of them

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Incentive. Give them a reason for holy war, and that will unite the lot of them

It will motivate the ignorant rabble consisting of religious extremists, the last thing a dictator playing off one faction against the other really needs.

It might spin out of his careful control and take him down.

Patriotic Army Mom
03-22-2011, 07:51 AM
As far as Iraq goes, our military has their hands tied while they are there. It's a mess everywhere we look.

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 07:28 PM
What I am curious about is where are all the anti-war activist? When are they going to protest?

Twoller
03-22-2011, 08:03 PM
What I am curious about is where are all the anti-war activist? When are they going to protest?

The anti-war activists as an establishment kind of front imagine the that they have some political solidarity with the forces arrayed against Qaddafi. The current international forces arrayed against Qaddafi do not discourage this point of view, even though it is rather obvious that the various outbreaks of civil unrest we are seeing in Egypt, Lybia and elsewhere are the work of the Muslim Brotherhood, a Middle Eastern version of Al Qaida and no doubt very much aligned with Al Qaida.

Eagle1
03-23-2011, 06:53 PM
I do not see a need for our presence in the Middle east at all. If our government had done its job and fulfilled its obligations to the people that they represent our borders would be secure, we would have achieved energy independence, gasoline would probably go for less than $1.50 a gallon at most, and our economy would be sound.

This "affliction" that has our government sending our military all over the world wherever there is civil unrest or war will in time see its way here too as foreign armies land on our shores to "help us out".

Oh happy day. I can see that coming some day soon if we are unfortunate enough to be unable to get intelligent, reasonable men and women to replace the rabble that is now running an ruining this nation.

My guess is that we will have within twenty years time less than fifty states in the Union and a Federation or alternate coalition of states living under our founding documents .

As for the Arabs, the Muslim Brotherhood my be the binding force active in uniting all of the Middle East against the USA with a plan to give us the "payback" they feel we deserve for having killed so many of their brethren.

Like George Washington said, "Avoid foreign entanglements".

ilbegone
03-30-2011, 09:39 PM
President Obama's Most Amazing Libyan Achievements

Victor Davis Hanson

By bombing Libya, President Obama accomplished some things once thought absolutely impossible in America:

a) War-mongering liberals. Liberals are now chest-thumping about military "progress" in Libya. Even liberal television and radio cite ingenious reasons why an optional, preemptive American intervention in an oil-producing Arab country, without prior congressional approval or majority public support -- and at a time of soaring deficits -- is well worth supporting, in a sort of "my president, right or wrong" fashion. Apparently liberal foreign policy is returning to the pre-Vietnam days of the hawkish "best and brightest."

b) Europe first. Many Americans have long complained about the opportunistic, utopian Europeans. Under the protective U.S. defense shield, they often privately urged us to deal with dangerous foreign dictators -- while staying above the fray to criticize America, at the same time seeking trade advantages and positive global PR. But now the wily Obama has out-waited even the French. He has managed to shame them into acting with a new possum-like U.S. strategy of playing dead until finally even Europe was exasperated -- almost as if the president were warning them, "We don't mind the Gadhafi bloodletting if you, who are much closer to it, don't mind." The British Guardian and French Le Monde will be too knee-deep in the Libyan war, busy chalking up Anglo-French "wins" and worrying about European oil concessions, to charge America with the usual imperialism, colonialism and militarism. We are almost back to the 1956 world of the Suez crisis.

c) Iraq was just a Libyan prequel. Conservatives have complained that past opposition -- especially in the cases of then-Sens. Barack Obama and Joe Biden -- to George W. Bush's antiterrorism policies and wars in Afghanistan and Iraq was more partisan than principled. Obama ended that debate by showing that not only can he embrace -- or, on occasion, expand -- the Bush-Cheney tribunals, preventative detentions, renditions, Predator attacks, intercepts and wiretaps, and Guantanamo Bay, but now preemptively attack an Arab oil-exporting country without fear of Hollywood, congressional cutoffs, Moveon.org "General Betray Us"-type ads, Cindy Sheehan on the evening news, or "Checkpoint"-like novels. In short, Obama has ensured that the exasperated antiwar movement will never be quite the same.

d) Monster-in-recovery. The Gadhafi clan has been wooing Westerners through oil money and multicultural gobbledy-gook. In the last few years, the British released the Lockerbie bomber, a native of Libya; Saif Gadhafi, the would-be artist and scholar and the son of Col. Muammar Gadhafi, essentially bought a Ph.D. from the prestigious London School of Economics; the creepy Harvard-connected Monitor Group hired out cash-hungry "scholars" to write on-spec tributes to Gadhafi's achievements; and singers Mariah Carey, 50 Cent, Beyoncé and other entertainers earned a pile of petro-dollars for crooning before the Gadhafis. Then, suddenly, Obama spoiled the fun and profits by turning Gadhafi from a rehabilitated monster back into Ronald Reagan's old "Mad Dog of the Middle East."

e) Stuff happens. Many supporters of the Iraq war condemned Abu Ghraib as the poorly supervised, out-of-control prison it was. Lax American oversight resulted in the sexual humiliation of detained Iraqi insurgents. It was a deplorable episode in which, nonetheless, no one was killed, and yet it took an enormous toll on the credibility of administration officials. But while the media covered the Libyan bombing and the Middle East uprisings, a number of Afghan civilians allegedly were executed by a few rogue American soldiers. That was a far worse transgression than anything that happened at Abu Ghraib under Bush's tenure -- but apparently an incident that in the new media climate, can legitimately be ignored. Obama made "stuff happens" a legitimate defense for those doing their best to run a war from Washington.

f) War really is tiring. The media serially blamed a supposedly lazy Ronald Reagan for napping during military operations abroad. George W. Bush was criticized for cutting brush at his Texas ranch while soldiers fought and died in Iraq. Obama rendered all such presidential criticism as mere nitpicking when he started aerial bombardment in the midst of golfing, handicapping the NCAA basketball tournament and taking his family to Rio de Janeiro.

g) The road to Damascus? After Bush's interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, many war-weary Americans believed that we would never again get involved in a Middle East war. But now, with Obama's preemptive bombing of Libya, giddy American interventionists are again eyeing Iran, Syria -- and beyond!

In short, Obama turned America upside down when he bombed Libya -- and in ways we could have scarcely imagined.

http://townhall.com/columnists/victordavishanson/2011/03/31/president_obamas_most_amazing_libyan_achievements/page/full/

Rim05
03-31-2011, 05:29 AM
From post #3 to the very end of this thread, is what I have been wanting to read since the Egypt conflict started.
There is some one/thing behind the unrest besides ' citizens wanting freedon'. Someone wants all the Mid East I believe. The plan seems to be well thought out. I was amazed that we turned on Mubark, he was our friend, why him?
What are we going to do when we have the same kind of 'uprising' in this country? I do think it is coming.

I want to thank everyone who has posted in this thread, most people I know do not want to talk politics so I am mostly left to my own thoughts.

I will say that I don't think we should have been involved in firing a single shot or missile into Libya. Those people did not have anything nor any training for the fight they started. I have heard them say "We need help" and " Where is Obama".
Only a fool will start a war they know they cannot win.

Twoller
03-31-2011, 09:47 AM
... I was amazed that we turned on Mubark, he was our friend, why him?

...

I think it is a common misconception that somehow the West just suddenly dumped our "friend" Mubarak. First, Mubarak was nothing like a friend to the US or the West. The only reason we propped up Mubarak was that he threatened to go to the Soviet Union at one time for support. The Soviet Union is gone and not only that, but Mubarak is sick and probably dying. He is retired and the inevitable outcome of the retirement of a dictator is chaos. He was not dumped by anyone. This whole mess was planned way in advance by the Muslim Brotherhood and other Muslims in the Middle East and anyone could see this day coming.

Rim05
03-31-2011, 02:48 PM
Post #16 and #19 are saying the things that I am looking for. All this had to be planned for some time. Those so called rebels run as soon as they see Kadifi's military and they get a burst of enegery and just start firing in the sky. Actually, no courage, no plan and no weapons. One had a plastic pistol and another had a knife.
The Muslim Brotherhood was my first thought. It could be even worse, and who is in the middle of it, USA!
There is still more hidden some place.