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DerailAmnesty.com
01-01-2011, 10:57 AM
Are we going to be having any SoCal events any time soon, or is what we've experienced since the end of last March pretty much the new norm? Will we have activist doings in 2011 (and I mean more than one or two) or is SOS now almost entirely a message board entity?

Ayatollahgondola
01-01-2011, 11:37 AM
We have three events up here in Sac coming up which I have obtained clearance on one so far. All three will be in January, and run three consecutive days. I posted this in this section:

http://saveourstate.info/showthread.php?t=3187

After I get the clearance for the other two, I'll post them in the official events section.
But as you can tell, there's not much interest from anyone in those. That doesn't mean to say we're a message board only though, because we have been doing events all along, including the one protest in Southern Ca against Meg Whitman's little concubine. We've held several up here too as you might remember, at the capitol.
I know it doesn't seem like much to those of us who want to see more, and who were passionately active over the last several years, but that doesn't mean we're dead, nor are we in spirit either. I tend to take these things in longer terms, so I'm a little more tolerant of the slow periods, which I'm hoping is what we've been experiencing lately. You gotta consider the nature of people too, in that they are always looking for the new sliced bread. Right now many are still infatuated with the TEA parties, although I see a little drifting already in those circles. People are always looking for new stimulus, kind of like they do with restaurants and movies. We're in it for the long haul though, and we will do what we can, when we can, as resources, personnel, and interest allows. I'd like to see more of course, but I do understand the circumstances of the times, as finances are dictating the participation of many people, especially me for that matter, and there are so many targets right now that seem to some of us as powerfully important as the immigration scheme. The elections, the economy, and the weather just to name a few.

But if it's any consolation, I'm just as motivated, and still interested in keeping up the effort as I was three years or more ago, and Jean and I are always discussing different tactics and actions that we can do with the limited resources that we have at present. We're certainly open to the input and participation of others, as we have always kept that door wide open, and there's no interest in just closing up shop or letting it slide purposely into a state of decay. We also respect the effort that you have given towards the organization, especially the actions you've put time and finances into, so if I haven't said it before, thanks from all of us.

DerailAmnesty.com
01-01-2011, 06:28 PM
Dude, you didn't answer the question.

Davi, I'm not attacking you nor am I making a confrontational inquiry. Further, I'm aware that you've orchestrated any number of things in Sacto. I was asking about SoCal b/c that's where the bulk of our membership is and commonly where events can be organized because we've got bodies, and can get more bodies through nearby outfits with whom we associate.

My question is are we going to be having events this year, down here, or are we pretty much message-board only now?

The reason I ask is b/c we've done next to nothing in L.A./OC/Ventura since Frank hung up his cleats. It's been approx. 9 months and Save Our State essentially sat on the sidelines during one of the most intense immigration event periods during our adult lives.

You don't have to justify yourself. I'm not accusing you or anyone else of anything. I'm just asking because we're at the beginning of a new year and the national immigration debate is heading for a resolution, one way or the other.

So, are we or aren't we?

Ayatollahgondola
01-01-2011, 09:02 PM
Are we?
Yes

Do we have any planned down there right now?
No

I can't order people to do events. It is in our best interest to inspire them, coax them, aid them, and set examples for them; which I believe we are still doing. But quality is preferable to quantity, and picking the time and places to expend our capital is our best strategy right now. If you have suggestions, by all means let's try and act on them, but right this minute it's in the middle of a nasty winter and we are still trying to entice our former betheren back, so I don't want to toss a poorly crafted, run of the mill exercise that might just end up less than enthusiastic and cripple our credibility.
I don't agree that we sat on the sidelines this year. Considering what SOS went through...A thorough backstabbing by the former management, orchestrated to a goal of sinking the ship by sabatoge...and yet we got back on our feet in spite of their larcenous attempt, and held several events, one of which thrust the race card to a position where it was scrutinzed in the press. We've done OK for a near homicide victim.

Rim05
01-02-2011, 06:45 AM
We have such a few who really want to hit the streets anymore. I follow everything I can via computer, print and TV. I act on many of those things. I wish I knew what to say or do to help get people on the street. In most things, if you don't agree with everything a person utters, you have committed a no no.
We are entering a very important phase on our cause right now. House leadership is changing so everyone thinks 'Great, now we will get something done'. I am not so sure, remember, the new people are still POLITICIANS.

I will always do all I can, short of the street activism.
Good luck to all SOS and members.
I will take the time to say I truly thank all who have worked to make SOS a success. I am truly greatful for all you have done.

PochoPatriot
01-02-2011, 11:43 AM
I have some thoughts on this, but I need to refine them a bit before I post.

Patriotic Army Mom
01-02-2011, 05:55 PM
Great Pocho. Think fast please. Ray Herrera has done many this year, and I've tried to make it to them all. There are so many coming out and shouting and they need to know that we are still around and ready. Love you all.

4shadows
01-03-2011, 07:26 PM
The movement, sos included has taken some trastic hits and imho the members, & public in general has given up. I have not. For reasons that some are aware of I cant go into specifics, but I am in Mexico alot and in dangerous places, no brag just fact. When we lost Campo, and again imho we lost it, we lost alot of momentum and spirit. I back sos now as I did a few years ago, but to keep the troops spirits alive they must be motivated and interested, not just up on what is going on, that is what the media does, inform us, people need their patriatism jump started for them to keep going. God Bless America and her people!

Ayatollahgondola
01-03-2011, 07:51 PM
I'm happy to read that you're still with us 4shadows.

SOS has not given up either, and there's no need for a funeral here. The year has just begun, and there's lots to do. As always, everyone is welcome and encouraged to participate.

Rim05
01-03-2011, 08:33 PM
I'm happy to read that you're still with us 4shadows.



So am I. I only met you once but I remember you a lot of times.
Stay safe my Friend.

PochoPatriot
01-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Ultimately the border security movement in Southern California is dead. It is dead because there are three people who think they are the movement. They are in no particular order: Nightingale, Coe & Gilchrist. Unless you are a part of one of the three you are a no body, and you will not get one once of support. Case in point, the American Apparel protest Jean and I tried field. No attendance (including myself, but that was because of an emergency appendectomy). No support, even on the old SOS. Why? Because I was involved. In other words, it was a case of ego trumping the cause. The principle of stopping illegal immigration has always been my drive in getting involved in this movement. Illegal immigration has to be the sole focus.

In my mind there are three major players, or persons with substantial influence in the southern California border security movement, Nightingale, Coe & Gilchrist. Cross any one of the three and you are dead in the water. They will cut off your numerical support. They will cut off all lines of communication. They will actively bad-mouth you to others. The reason for this is simple: They think they are the voice for border security in southern California. I saw this when Sam organized his vigil for Jamel Shaw. Sam got no support from Nightingale and Coe.

The problem with those three is that they hold way too much influence, and can define their enemies in terms that place them in the best light possible to their mindless followers. I have discovered that with these three in particular, it is all about ego and email lists. Personally, I have no email list. I had and have no agenda, other than wanting to stop the illegal invasion that is slowing but surely killing our country and culture.

Further, I think that so many of use that were in the front lines for so long are just tired of fighting and not seeing any return for our fight. Or worse yet, we have been wounded by the people that we thought were in the fight with us. I believe that the second proposition is more prevalent than the second. I for one lost a lot of the energy I had when I first joined this movement after the fall out I had with the old SOS management.

While Robin and Ray are doing a great job out in the IE, the fact remains that Los Angeles is the place were an impact must be made. Events in Los Angeles will attract media attention because it is in Los Angeles as opposed to the IE. What is needed is something that will put border security back on the media's radar. We need something radical and new. We can no longer have the same old protests and counter-protests were each side screams at each other. The media has seen this, and it won't excite them. What did excite them? The last time I recall the media covering anything we did was after Ted Hayes and the other four of us crossed the LAPD line at Leimert Park. Now I could be wrong about this, but I don't recall media at the Simi Valley church protest, or the Westwood Federal building Ron Paul lovefest.

So what is that radical and new protest? I really have no idea. This is where we need people with fresh ideas, at best, or at least, a meeting of the minds. Some of the best ideas I heard were at lunches after events, but we never had the chance to implement them.

As for me, I would love to get a jump start that would re-energize my passion for border security. I just don't see a reason to get energized based on the turnouts and the general passion of people. Then again I could be all wrong, and everything I have just written is just another steaming pile of bovine excrement.

Ayatollahgondola
01-05-2011, 12:29 PM
I'm going to disagree with you on a few things.

Number 1, alot of this is old news, and we are dealing with today. The past events you wrote about were far enough back not to be effecting our present as much as you might believe.

#2, Gilchrist and Nightingale are no longer 2 of the three players here in California. Nightingale gave it up for more personalized fame, which she didn't succeed in, and I cannot remember when the last time was that I saw Jim or MMP in the news related to anything in Los Angeles.

And lastly, the movement is still alive, with some of the same people, but sans the energy that drove us onto the streets before. Nightingale may have crippled us at the time, but there's little excuse for that now. People are basically come up short where it concerns long term projects. This is why you see so many exercise machines that look like they're new, out in the front yards during garage sales. Likewise, many sailboats are sitting in garages with barely more than their keels laid.
But we are a long term organization. We think long, act long, and stick with things for long terms. So what if the enthusiasm isn't gushing right now. We'll be here when it does, and in the meantime we'll be here keeping the seats warm and the ship rowing forward.

DerailAmnesty.com
01-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Ultimately the border security movement in Southern California is dead. It is dead because there are three people who think they are the movement. They are in no particular order: Nightingale, Coe & Gilchrist. Unless you are a part of one of the three you are a no body, and you will not get one once of support. Case in point, the American Apparel protest Jean and I tried field. No attendance (including myself, but that was because of an emergency appendectomy). No support, even on the old SOS. Why? Because I was involved. In other words, it was a case of ego trumping the cause. The principle of stopping illegal immigration has always been my drive in getting involved in this movement. Illegal immigration has to be the sole focus.

In my mind there are three major players, or persons with substantial influence in the southern California border security movement, Nightingale, Coe & Gilchrist. Cross any one of the three and you are dead in the water. They will cut off your numerical support. They will cut off all lines of communication. They will actively bad-mouth you to others. The reason for this is simple: They think they are the voice for border security in southern California. I saw this when Sam organized his vigil for Jamel Shaw. Sam got no support from Nightingale and Coe.


Wow, interesting analysis. Dude, I almost entirely disagree with you.

Firstly, what was the last thing you can recall Chelene or Gilchrist organizing in SoCal that was immigration centered?

Secondly, what was the last immigration protest you can recall Barb spearheading that didn't involve multiple people who think of Chelene as pond scum?

Thirdly, in all seriousness, would you want any of their reputations? And you can add Schwilk's to that list. And I don't mean "reputations" among people who detest them or have axes to grind, or reputations with sycophants. I mean to the larger public.

Fourthly, the events we had in the first quarter of '10 disprove most of what you said. Those Santa Clarita events rocked. Jean and Frank dug up passionate folks we'd never seen before - a good number of them.

Don't kid yourself. SOS (This SOS, not the old one) can stage events and produce bodies. The evidence of this has been produced on multiple occasions. We haven't because events haven't been scheduled. We have an organizing committee that no longer organizes. Period.

Chelene and her merry band of conspiracy theorists have about as much impact on what we choose to do, as they did on the gubernatorial election. The Shaws, Ted, Tea Partiers, California Crusaders, etc. People will show ...

Ayatollahgondola
01-05-2011, 10:01 PM
The event committee is still open for people who want to join it. It's always been open.

The Shaws, Ted, Tea Partiers, California Crusaders, etc. People will show ...

Maybe. It's really hard to pull everyone together at once. One of the things pocho mentioned is somewhat true. There needs to be a catalyst...something new or exciting...to draw everyone together for an event. That opportunity hasn't arisen yet. And when it isn't present, you have to work ten times harder at getting butts in seats.

Rim05
01-05-2011, 10:39 PM
It's really hard to pull everyone together at once. One of the things pocho mentioned is somewhat true. There needs to be a catalyst...something new or exciting...to draw everyone together for an event. That opportunity hasn't arisen yet. And when it isn't present, you have to work ten times harder at getting butts in seats.
__________________


If all the things being tried by LaRaza the days does not inspire all of us to do something, I don't know what it will take. You are seeing all those who were counting on the Dream Act passing digging up the illegals who want a college education so they can then run for public office.
The Fresno student body president, Pedro Hernandez, is a good example.
Another one is Tony Mendoza, congress person from some place here in the LA area. I heard him on TV today saying he is going to introduce a motion to have a ballot measure to have a vote to give all illegals who have been here for 5 years a path to citizen ship. I guess he is legal, but he used his US education to be able to get elected and now he is all for the Illegal Invaders.
I think that is the plan all this desire for education is to help them control the political scene as well as the schools from K to College.
In the mean time we wonder 'if' we can get people to come together for an event. We cannot worry what the old SOS is doing or has done. We make our own music.

DerailAmnesty.com
01-05-2011, 10:52 PM
If all the things being tried by LaRaza the days does not inspire all of us to do something, I don't know what it will take.

I wholeheartedly agree. All manner of fireworks and happenings went off last year, and we sat it out. Gutierrez, Fiorina/Boxer, DREAM Act, exhibitions of civil disobedience, SB1070 ... all of it.

Whether the event committee is open membership or closed is irrelevant. We have one, it has personnel, but nothing gets produced anymore.

That's just reality.

admin
01-06-2011, 05:26 AM
I wholeheartedly agree. All manner of fireworks and happenings went off last year, and we sat it out. Gutierrez, Fiorina/Boxer, DREAM Act, exhibitions of civil disobedience, SB1070 ... all of it.

Whether the event committee is open membership or closed is irrelevant. We have one, it has personnel, but nothing gets produced anymore.

That's just reality.

It is not irrelevant whether the event committee is open or closed. We have stated from the outset that we invite and welcome participation, and we prove our intent by keeping the door, and opportunity, open to those who wish to be active. If the committee was closed, that would be a relevant factor in why there wasn't any events. However, there have been events. July, August, september, and October, Save Our State held events. It is not unconscionable that we didn't hold events in November and December. The election, the holidays, and the weather are solid factors that planners don't want to compete with. Now here it is January, and we'll be having three more events this month.
We'd like to see more, however, as stated here already, we are a non-profit organization with limited resources at present; we do what we can, when we can, and where we can.

Rim05
01-06-2011, 08:05 AM
Whether the event committee is open membership or closed is irrelevant. We have one, it has personnel, but nothing gets produced anymore.

That's just reality.


I think it is very discouraging to those who organize and post all the details and then no one is interested. Just about all the time I would try and let it be known if I could attend but now of course, I am retired. :)

I see a number of new members in the last month or so, I do hope this will encourage others to step up for some action, believe me, we need you.
Never forget this in not entertainment, this is for the very survival of our country.

Patriotic Army Mom
01-06-2011, 08:42 AM
I've been to all that was on my time schedule this past year, and missed others. There are so many new faces, it's a boost to all of those who've been out in the trenches. Yes, we need to get out there and make our self visible. Others need to see this, so that they know they are not alone. Why even SZ has moved up to actual printed signs. Personally I love his signs made on old card board boxes. We still have the fight and the passion, and many of us are tired, but must go on. I'm old, but I'm bold! God Bless America and the fight must continue. Many have gone to the cities and done the fight in the government offices, this has been effective. Let's go and do our thing, it is not dead.

PochoPatriot
01-06-2011, 12:07 PM
I am glad that I am wrong. Maybe being out of the loop for as long as I have been has jaded my point of view. Perhaps getting older has caused me to forget a lot of the events from the beginning of 2010. SB1070 was in deed a the type of catalyst that was needed in order to re-energize this movement.

Patriotic Army Mom
01-06-2011, 06:31 PM
California Crusader has been real busy, then there is the 912 group our here and a few more. But, the new faces you see is awesome. Even my church has finally got into it. I was the only rebel there.

DerailAmnesty.com
01-06-2011, 06:33 PM
It is not irrelevant whether the event committee is open or closed. We have stated from the outset that we invite and welcome participation, and we prove our intent by keeping the door, and opportunity, open to those who wish to be active. If the committee was closed, that would be a relevant factor in why there wasn't any events. However, there have been events. July, August, september, and October, Save Our State held events. It is not unconscionable that we didn't hold events in November and December. The election, the holidays, and the weather are solid factors that planners don't want to compete with. Now here it is January, and we'll be having three more events this month.
We'd like to see more, however, as stated here already, we are a non-profit organization with limited resources at present; we do what we can, when we can, and where we can.


Those are just not very accurate or relevant observations.

- The issue is not, and has not been, events. It is events in So. Calif., where most of our membership resides.
- Being a non-profit doesn't interfere with any of our attempts to stand on sidewalks, wave signs or give speeches. We have just as little funding as we always have.
- The election, the holidays, and the weather explain non-activity since October, not inaction since last spring.
- Open or closed membership in the organizing committee does not prevent the people currently in the organizing committee from organizing. Keeping your door open or extending opportunity is fine and dandy ... and doesn't hinder any person currently in the committee from orchestrating public appearances.

Look, you've answered my original inquiry, so I won't belabor the points any further. If nothing else, this thread has been illuminating as to why we've been in a coma down here; and I mean that without an ounce of sarcasm or hostility. You answered the questions I've had - Thanks.

admin
01-07-2011, 09:12 AM
Look, you've answered my original inquiry, so I won't belabor the points any further. If nothing else, this thread has been illuminating as to why we've been in a coma down here; and I mean that without an ounce of sarcasm or hostility. You answered the questions I've had - Thanks.

No problem. Glad we were able to help.

We do have events in play right now, albeit up in Sacramento. It makes sense to conduct them up here at this time because we have access to the statehouse, and several centers of the institutions that affect our agenda. I'm certain we'll have some in the Southern end of the state soon too.

Rim05
01-07-2011, 09:32 AM
I posted an incorrect name for the Fresno State student a few days ago. It is Pedro Rameriz and not Pedro Hernandez. Probably everyone caught the error but just in case someone did not.

Below is the fellow student who is investigating Rameriz. I would say he is doing a good job and his contact info is here. If I post any more I will start a new thread concerning the matter. If you can help Neil I am sure he would appreciate it.



Neil O'Brien, Citizen's Advocate



P. O. Box 2187



Clovis, Ca 93613



Direct: (760) 898-9898



E-mail: neil@ntrdinc.com





cfontana@fresnobee.com





Critic of Fresno State student leader takes action





Read more:

http://www.fresnobee.com/2011/01/03/2218336/critic-of-student-body-president.html#ixzz1A5KMON2o

A Fresno State student critical of the university's student president submitted public information requests Monday to campus officials.



Neil O'Brien, a recreation major, said he is continuing an investigation of Associated Students Inc. President Pedro Ramirez, who acknowledged last fall that he is an illegal immigrant.

ilbegone
01-08-2011, 07:56 AM
We are entering a very important phase on our cause right now. House leadership is changing so everyone thinks 'Great, now we will get something done'. I am not so sure, remember, the new people are still POLITICIANS.

There was something in the LA Times the other day about how the newcomers might be shaped by Washington rather than the newcomers shaping Washington, when idealism is confronted by various political realities.

There has to room for compromise, or nothing at all will get done. The California legislature is a perfect example of that sort of problem, where legislation of "SHOW OFF YOUR GAY PEEK-A-POO DOG DAY" is vastly more important than an unsustainable budget crisis.

On the other hand, I believe the various electorates actually have had enough that if election promises to the population which elected them - on any side of any issue - are not kept, the mob will be out with sharp knives next election cycle.

Events in Los Angeles will attract media attention because it is in Los Angeles as opposed to the IE. What is needed is something that will put border security back on the media's radar. We need something radical and new. We can no longer have the same old protests and counter-protests were each side screams at each other. The media has seen this, and it won't excite them.

There has to be found a way to get around the media. The media in general is very sympathetic to the illegal alien cause, I believe the incessant drum beat in favor of the illegal population is toned down only because of the current audience climate - it's hard to generate circulation and viewing loyalty (ultimately sales and profit) by publishing "downtrodden immigrant" stories with unemployment of the average citizenry in such numbers.

But face it - the only stories the media are going to present concerning anti illegal immigration functions will be slanted and accusatory.

If all the things being tried by LaRaza the days does not inspire all of us to do something, I don't know what it will take. You are seeing all those who were counting on the Dream Act passing digging up the illegals who want a college education so they can then run for public office.

They have to dig up a certain percentage of those who have gone on to higher education to to present the propaganda. What isn't being done by the media is revealing the outrageous drop out rate of "Latinos", and the fact that there is no distinction being made between "Latinos" who are citizens and those who are illegal.

No amount of money is going to improve education results for the majority mentioned until reality is faced and admission as to why those problems exist.

SB1070 was in deed a the type of catalyst that was needed in order to re-energize this movement.

There may be a indeterminate lull in time concerning bodies present for anti illegal immigrantion functions, but the fact that so many states are legislating SB 1070 copy cat laws after the fact of and in the face of the Department of Justice Lawsuit against Arizona says something about the concerns of the general American population.

americafirst
01-26-2011, 04:58 PM
Yesterdays State of the Union speech, as pointed out by Roy Beck, did not have the following words...
"DREAM Act" or "legalization" or "comprehensive immigration reform."
This was made possible by all of the SOS hard work through the last years,now spreading across America.
At this point, I think more of our work should be on E-verify and enforcement.
Based on my own recent experience, people are ready to hear the real story on this issue and not be blinded by the labels.
Any SoCal rally is a good one as it lets the public know they are not alone in the way they see things now. Some of these people might have been unsympathetic in the past. The last few years have made it a little easier for the average LA resident to rethink illegal immigration.
This should be a great time to add members! With better weather now,I am looking forward to be out there with all you guys.

Jeanfromfillmore
01-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Yesterdays State of the Union speech, as pointed out by Roy Beck, did not have the following words...
"DREAM Act" or "legalization" or "comprehensive immigration reform."
This was made possible by all of the SOS hard work through the last years,now spreading across America.
At this point, I think more of our work should be on E-verify and enforcement.
Based on my own recent experience, people are ready to hear the real story on this issue and not be blinded by the labels.
Any SoCal rally is a good one as it lets the public know they are not alone in the way they see things now. Some of these people might have been unsympathetic in the past. The last few years have made it a little easier for the average LA resident to rethink illegal immigration.
This should be a great time to add members! With better weather now,I am looking forward to be out there with all you guys.
Thank you for the words of encouragement.

americafirst
01-28-2011, 02:20 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351385/Controversial-Muslim-cleric-caught-smuggled-U-S-Mexico-border.html

Here is a situation that we could protest in Santa Monica. Even muslims would agree with us. It would give us a chance to talk to different people, that I believe, are looking for a "reason" now to support border enforcement. They have not been able to get past the "racist" label because of all the programming going on.
We have a budget crisis, unemployment rate, and overall bad to worse economy to shake these people loose from their past ignorance.

Bear Flag Republican
02-11-2011, 03:52 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1351385/Controversial-Muslim-cleric-caught-smuggled-U-S-Mexico-border.html

Here is a situation that we could protest in Santa Monica. Even muslims would agree with us. It would give us a chance to talk to different people, that I believe, are looking for a "reason" now to support border enforcement. They have not been able to get past the "racist" label because of all the programming going on.
We have a budget crisis, unemployment rate, and overall bad to worse economy to shake these people loose from their past ignorance.


Let's do it, santa monica's not too far.

Jeanfromfillmore
02-11-2011, 04:44 PM
There is an Event Organizers Group that you can join to discuss such things. I encourage you to do that and it will be discussed.

Why Santa Monica though? Where did that come from? The article said nothing about that area, and it's not central to all our members, just curious.

Ayatollahgondola
02-11-2011, 07:59 PM
To get on the event organizers committee, go to the link in your upper left hand corner on the menu bar that says "User CP". Then go down the menu on the left to "Networking", and then you'll see "Group Memberships". Just click that you want to join "event planners" and the administrator will make it so within a day or two

americafirst
03-01-2011, 02:23 PM
I threw the idea of Santa Monica out there because I was thinking about the area around Third Steet promenade where some other groups have set up tables promoting various political views. The place has a mix of locals and tourists. It falls into my view that SOS has a fresh opportunity to educate the public. I think SOS had a past rally near the Santa Monica Pier. I was not there but I did see a video on Youtube.

I really do not know what area is "central" to our members as I am not aware of where everyone lives. I just assume that members close to any area will do what they can. I would hope that if there if a rally in San Bernadino, that SOS would not pass on it if I could not drive that far. That is the same reason I haven't driven to Big Bear lake in a while.lol!
Anyway, I leave it up to the group to decide when and where.

Cole Younger
03-21-2011, 03:13 PM
The original Minuteman Project and the original SOS both had unique goals. The Minuteman project was simple and brought attention to the border something that was not happening at all. SOS (Joe Turner) had a goal of bringing local attention to the issue by organizing local protest. Both strategies worked for awhile and they both failed.

Protests are a waste of time unless some political gain comes from it. Keep in mind that only politicians can change policies, laws, and enforcement practices...which is the only thing that is going to make a difference. Standing around with bull horns (sorry Sandy if you are around here), inviting counter protests, or inviting protestors that maybe counterproductive to the cause, does very little to sway public opinion or achieve any political gain.

Until this is recognized, SOS, or any organization will always be a failure. They say politics is local, this is where the fight begins. Its voters that SOS needs, not protests. If a politician is pro amnesty, that is your target. Immigration or amnesty does not necessarily have to be the election issue. You use whatever is in your favor. You organize not by so cal, nor cal, you organize by political districts. You also don't advertize you are a anti illegal immigration platform. You are pro something or other. "Anti" gives a negative whereas "Pro" gives a positive. Protest have a place in politics.... but protest need to include a political strategy to be sucessful.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 04:56 PM
First off, Welcome back!
Always glad to see our betheren, who drifted away for whatever reason, come home.:)


With that said...I have to thrash you a little on a couple things

Protests are a waste of time unless some political gain comes from it. Keep in mind that only politicians can change policies, laws, and enforcement practices...which is the only thing that is going to make a difference. Standing around with bull horns (sorry Sandy if you are around here), inviting counter protests, or inviting protestors that maybe counterproductive to the cause, does very little to sway public opinion or achieve any political gain.

Protests are not always aimed at politicians. They are often aimed at enforcement officials like the police or some investigation unit of certain agencies. They are also aimed at gathering support, notifying the public of a problem, or just becoming as much of a nuisance as the problem itself, so as to create incentive for change. Politicians are also not behind things like initiatives, and it is street level activism that gained the notariety that enabled initiatives to happen. Protests have been quite effective for people like Ghandi, Lech Walesa, Ceasar Chavez, and MLK Jr.


Until this is recognized, SOS, or any organization will always be a failure. They say politics is local, this is where the fight begins. Its voters that SOS needs, not protests
SOS was not a failure, nor is it, nor is it predestined to be in the future. The past actions we did are still providing material for the effort, training for new people, and inspiration for those who feel the same as we do. In addition, I can tell you that our actions at the day labor area here in Sac alone had an effect. We brought pressure and the the illegals supporters had to spend time and money to keep them dispersed. Had it not been for day labor protests, the HD's and similar sites would be operating at 10 times the capacity now. Our protests gave the indication to authorites and politicians that there were limits to what they could get away with. Politicians can be bought off, threatened, and even bumped off after we elect them, so it's not all about voters. Protesters are what give them the backbone support they need if the first of those two comes before them.

Hell, I could go on and on about this, refuting your claim, however I'm not a bit convinced that this org or the others were destined to fail simply because they were not aimed at politicians or districts. Voters are being replaced as we speak, and voter fraud can cancel them out. What you gonna do then?

Cole Younger
03-21-2011, 05:13 PM
First off, Welcome back!
Always glad to see our betheren, who drifted away for whatever reason, come home.:)


With that said...I have to thrash you a little on a couple things



Protests are not always aimed at politicians. They are often aimed at enforcement officials like the police or some investigation unit of certain agencies. They are also aimed at gathering support, notifying the public of a problem, or just becoming as much of a nuisance as the problem itself, so as to create incentive for change. Politicians are also not behind things like initiatives, and it is street level activism that gained the notariety that enabled initiatives to happen. Protests have been quite effective for people like Ghandi, Lech Walesa, Ceasar Chavez, and MLK Jr.



SOS was not a failure, nor is it, nor is it predestined to be in the future. The past actions we did are still providing material for the effort, training for new people, and inspiration for those who feel the same as we do. In addition, I can tell you that our actions at the day labor area here in Sac alone had an effect. We brought pressure and the the illegals supporters had to spend time and money to keep them dispersed. Had it not been for day labor protests, the HD's and similar sites would be operating at 10 times the capacity now. Our protests gave the indication to authorites and politicians that there were limits to what they could get away with. Politicians can be bought off, threatened, and even bumped off after we elect them, so it's not all about voters. Protesters are what give them the backbone support they need if the first of those two comes before them.

Hell, I could go on and on about this, refuting your claim, however I'm not a bit convinced that this org or the others were destined to fail simply because they were not aimed at politicians or districts. Voters are being replaced as we speak, and voter fraud can cancel them out. What you gonna do then?

Hi Davi,
I guess you got my PM....and remember who I am... :)

As you know, I pull no punches but I try and be polite..

"Protests are not always aimed at politicians. They are often aimed at enforcement officials like the police or some investigation unit of certain agencies."....OK....Who is charge of those enforcement officials?

I will agree...."Protests have been quite effective for people like Ghandi, Lech Walesa, Ceasar Chavez, and MLK Jr." All these great people had a political end goal...

Your more affective using your strategy of code enforcement than protesting. Again, unless you recognize that politics is the root of the problem, you lose. Change the politics or the political environment, you win. You can claim all the individual success's or perceived success's you want. The borders are not secured, illegals still influence local election and policies, and protesting without voters behind it is useless. Change the politician, change the policy.

Rant on...:)

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 05:18 PM
Hi Davi,
I guess you got my PM....and remember who I am... :)

As you know, I pull no punches but I try and be polite..

"Protests are not always aimed at politicians. They are often aimed at enforcement officials like the police or some investigation unit of certain agencies."....OK....Who is charge of those enforcement officials?

I will agree...."Protests have been quite effective for people like Ghandi, Lech Walesa, Ceasar Chavez, and MLK Jr." All these great people had a political end goal...

Your more affective using your strategy of code enforcement than protesting. Again, unless you recognize that politics is the root of the problem, you lose. Change the politics or the political environment, you win. You can claim all the individual success's or perceived success's you want. The borders are not secured, illegals still influence local election and policies, and protesting without voters behind it is useless. Change the politician, change the policy.

Rant on...:)

We don't always hold protests; We hold events
Check through the upcoming events section to see what we've been up to.

But be careful about upsetting an old protester like me. I might challenge you to a duel :D

Cole Younger
03-21-2011, 05:36 PM
We don't always hold protests; We hold events
Check through the upcoming events section to see what we've been up to.

But be careful about upsetting an old protester like me. I might challenge you to a duel :D

You know I love a good dual...But I won't be hiking down the street with my .06 and in my hunting gear to go to the range..:D

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 05:40 PM
You know I love a good dual...But I won't be hiking down the street with my .06 and in my hunting gear to go to the range..:D

Don't care for the taste of warm asphalt? Once you taste black, you can never go back :D

Cole Younger
03-21-2011, 05:45 PM
Don't care for the taste of warm asphalt? Once you taste black, you can never go back :D

It's not the asphalt...I want to keep my teeth...:D

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 05:55 PM
It's not the asphalt...I want to keep my teeth...:D

I didn't lose those there. That happened the year before, and totally different circumstances.;)
Open carry is an important a right as an open mouth ie the first amendment. I'm not a fanatic about guns, but I might be about rights.:cool:

Cole Younger
03-21-2011, 06:21 PM
I didn't lose those there. That happened the year before, and totally different circumstances.;)
Open carry is an important a right as an open mouth ie the first amendment. I'm not a fanatic about guns, but I might be about rights.:cool:

To be honest, I am a fanatic about guns and I do know all about open carry however, always have a lawyer with you when you plan to exercise this right.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 06:34 PM
To be honest, I am a fanatic about guns and I do know all about open carry however, always have a lawyer with you when you plan to exercise this right.

Excellent Idea. Cops hate lawyers more than they do open carriers. Giving them an optional target just might be the safest thing

Cole Younger
03-21-2011, 06:40 PM
Excellent Idea. Cops hate lawyers more than they do open carriers. Giving them an optional target just might be the safest thing

Absolutely....:D

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 09:10 PM
Keep in mind that only politicians can change policies, laws, and enforcement practices...which is the only thing that is going to make a difference.

This is the key.

Too many people obsess about pregnant Mexican women and forget about what made it all possible.

The politicians.

Both parties have something to gain from illegal migration. The only difference is that one wants "immigrant" clout in voting numbers exchanged for "social" freebies and the other wants a non voting slave class exchanged for business political favor.

So the parties have to be circumvented and individuals selected for office who have the right interest.

After all, that's how we have the problems we do - through decades of grass roots organizing and successfully portraying brown racism as "cultural pride", the open borders racists have the education system in their pocket and have swayed the political battle, at least in California, their way.

I have come to the conclusion that until it is recognized and understood that politicians have allowed employers to evade immigration law and ignore "Immigration" judges circumventing deportation in over 60% of the cases brought before them while "educators" propagandize our youth to our sovereignty negation and cultural destruction, it is largely a waste of time to publicly chastise illegally present vendors of bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Errant politicians need to be run off while appropriate candidate selections are presented, and that's not accomplished by bagging on pregnant Mexican women.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 11:02 PM
This is the key.

Too many people obsess about pregnant Mexican women and forget about what made it all possible.

The politicians.

Both parties have something to gain from illegal migration. The only difference is that one wants "immigrant" clout in voting numbers exchanged for "social" freebies and the other wants a non voting slave class exchanged for business political favor.

So the parties have to be circumvented and individuals selected for office who have the right interest.

After all, that's how we have the problems we do - through decades of grass roots organizing and successfully portraying brown racism as "cultural pride", the open borders racists have the education system in their pocket and have swayed the political battle, at least in California, their way.

I have come to the conclusion that until it is recognized and understood that politicians have allowed employers to evade immigration law and ignore "Immigration" judges circumventing deportation in over 60% of the cases brought before them while "educators" propagandize our youth to our sovereignty negation and cultural destruction, it is largely a waste of time to publicly chastise illegally present vendors of bacon wrapped hot dogs.

Errant politicians need to be run off while appropriate candidate selections are presented, and that's not accomplished by bagging on pregnant Mexican women.

Nobody cared before. Before the protests that is. People were afraid or reluctant to speak up before people like us hit the streets with protest signs, made commentary on social media websites, and spoke out at public meetings. So we pointed out the invading lawbreakers were multiplying at our expense, and guess what? People took up the anchor baby loophole. Now it's in play in the political spectrum
sorry, but you just don't go from one individual getting pissed off, to the politicians office, to change, without some hard, thrashing, social discourse, whereby you pick up either enemies or friends.
We've been doing the right thing, given what we have to work with.

ilbegone
03-21-2011, 11:20 PM
We've been doing the right thing, given what we have to work with.

It is uphill in sand and against the wind the whole way..

I'd like to see more about the politicians who create the mess rather than about illegals and Americans who are confused with being illegal.

If a politician or government employee of any sort, including judges, aids and abets illegal migration, that person is just as guilty as any human smuggler in the trade.

Ayatollahgondola
03-21-2011, 11:30 PM
If a politician or government employee of any sort, including judges, aids and abets illegal migration, that person is just as guilty as any human smuggler in the trade.

No argument there; But those politicians in question have to be sent a clear message how we feel, and we can't expect them to stand up and publicly denounce illegals unless we do it often and ruthlessly. we set the standards for them out there. If we sympathize a little, the politician takes license with that for a waiver.

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 10:44 AM
But those politicians in question have to be sent a clear message how we feel

So,...How do we feel? I have spent the last day catching up on much of the soap opera's, splintered so-called patriot factions, name calling, harassment, law suits etc. and I will tell you, it's a big disappointment.

When this movement started, none of this BS occurred. Many of the old timers know who I am but not under this user name. I was there at the beginning (I "think" I was #25 on the membership of SOS) . I left after it came clear to me that a certain decisions where being made that made no sense and would become counter productive to the cause. I didn't get banned, I asked that my membership be removed.

With that being said in my opinion the movement lost it's way. It failed to expand into other issues. Save Our State sole purpose was a anti-illegal immigration organization with one goal in mind. Well, its been 6 years and what have you really accomplished? There is very little unity and too many self serving individuals taking advantage of a issue to further personal goals such as running for political offices with no real hope of winning. It was a waste of time, effort, and money / resources.

Politics is the end game but it has to be done in a realistic fashion. These small so-called patriot factions have no chance of creating a viable candidate.

So tell me, how is stopping illegal immigration into this State going to save it? The state faces 500 billion (1/2 trillion) of unfunded pension plans...is stopping illegal immigration going to fund those pension plans?

Look, I will make this simple and to the point. Being a single issue activist group will get you no where. You are not going to get the broad voter support you need to make political change a reality.

"Save Our State" should be much broader than anti-illegal immigration which is something Joe Turner and the rest of the the crowed failed to recognize or capitalize on. This State faces real problems. Illegal immigration is a part of the problem but not the only problem. If you want membership to grow, this organization needs to re-organize and be multifaceted. I am not suggesting abandoning a anti-illegal immigration stance, but incorporating a stance against corruption, lobbying, special interest, government waste, taxes, etc.

Make illegal immigration part of the platform, not the whole platform.

Rant on...:D

Ayatollahgondola
03-22-2011, 11:47 AM
Make illegal immigration part of the platform, not the whole platform.

Rant on...:D

Have you even read our mission/corporate statement?

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 12:51 PM
Have you even read our mission/corporate statement? Nope...but I just did...I still see no changes per se'

Mission statements mean little unless you actively pursue the implementation of them.

What I see on this site are copy and paste news article, emails, and a few comments. I see no forward looking plans to gain public support, membership, or activism political or otherwise. Maybe thats being discussed behind the scenes but if someone happened across this site they would never know it.

Maybe I am being a little unfair but having 50 active members from the old organization does not impress me. What is the goal? Are you thinking outside the box? How are you going to turn the situation around and grow? I don't see any brainstorming.

Has anyone looked at say the State assembly and senate and figure out there voting records on a number of issues, including subsidies for illegal immigration?

You currently have 50 active members. Maybe challenge them to find out where there state law makers stand on budget issues, immigration, unfunded liabilities, who lobbies them, are they good for the state or not etc. Are they involved in any political misdoings or scandals?

As far as the immigration fight goes, I would distance myself as far away from The MMP, ALIPAC, CCIR, SD Minuteman, etc...there leadership are all nuts and have lost sight of there goals..I am really amazed how idiotic these organizations became and the inflated ego's that accompany them is beyond belief. It appears none of them do anything constructive but they all have time to be destructive toward one another. If I were you, I would just delete the BS emails and other comments made. I know you like full disclosure and I respect that but full disclosure is not beneficial to acquiring new blood. To be honest, I see no need in having the old blood around causing trouble.

I suggest you acquire a new strategy. As long as the BS in the past is around, you may find it difficult to move forward. I honestly had no clue what was going on but I have a good idea now on whats been occurring and I will tell you many should be ashamed of themselves. Many have little to no moral character and zero leadership abilities. You lead by example and none of the idiots that claim to be leaders have a clue.

My 2 cents.

Ayatollahgondola
03-22-2011, 01:22 PM
Has anyone looked at say the State assembly and senate and figure out there voting records on a number of issues, including subsidies for illegal immigration?
http://saveourstate.info/forumdisplay.php?f=6

With all due respect; I think you are seeing what you want to see here.

We are a non-profit public benefit corporation/organization. Non-profits are chartered to address specific agendas. Non profits do not alter their missions every year to accomodate changing political whims. Many people do not understand what a non profit is, or what it is supposed to be anyway. Turner/nightingale didn't either.
I have been on the receiving end of similarly bent advice such as yours lately, and it is usually coming from the republican heiarchy or the TEA party associates under their wing. I can only tell you this: We are what we are here. We didn't set out to fix all of California's problems, nor will we be led astray by such a wide ranging agenda

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 01:41 PM
http://saveourstate.info/forumdisplay.php?f=6

With all due respect; I think you are seeing what you want to see here.

We are a non-profit public benefit corporation/organization. Non-profits are chartered to address specific agendas. Non profits do not alter their missions every year to accomodate changing political whims. Many people do not understand what a non profit is, or what it is supposed to be anyway. Turner/nightingale didn't either.
I have been on the receiving end of similarly bent advice such as yours lately, and it is usually coming from the republican heiarchy or the TEA party associates under their wing. I can only tell you this: We are what we are here. We didn't set out to fix all of California's problems, nor will we be led astray by such a wide ranging agenda

You are correct, I have no experience with non-profits.

So in essence activism is not the main goal nor is it political change, correct?

Is SOS basically a cut and paste news outlet? or am I missing something? Beyond cut and paste for educational purposes, is there anything else going on. Davi, I know you are active in protests up in your area however, are those protest unaffiliated with the new SOS structure?

I am just trying to get a feel for what SOS is about now as I am not sure what is going on.

Trust me, I am no operative of any political party or movement. I am now, and have always been independent minded and I trash all political parties and stupidity as I see it equally and without prejudice. If they deserve criticism, I am the first to oblige them.

Ayatollahgondola
03-22-2011, 01:49 PM
You are correct, I have no experience with non-profits.

So in essence activism is not the main goal nor is it political change, correct?

Is SOS basically a cut and paste news outlet? or am I missing something? Beyond cut and paste for educational purposes, is there anything else going on. Davi, I know you are active in protests up in your area however, are those protest unaffiliated with the new SOS structure?

I am just trying to get a feel for what SOS is about now as I am not sure what is going on.

I'm not sure how to address the cut and paste thing. Sure people gather information and relay it here to others that way. that's a good thing

we are still active, and that is one of our primary functions, however we are quite restricted by funding. We try and do things that don't require money in the interim. but we've still held events as I have pointed out to you. We will hold more soon. we do what we can, when we can. Check our calendar on the upper menu bar and you'll see some things going on in the state capitol that we hope to make an impact on. We still operate the mobile billboard too.

I should also add, that if think you have a strategy that could be tried, go to your user CP un the upper left part of the menu bar and request to get on the events committee. We're always interested in getting people active and trying new things

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm not sure how to address the cut and paste thing. Sure people gather information and relay it here to others that way. that's a good thing

we are still active, and that is one of our primary functions, however we are quite restricted by funding. We try and do things that don't require money in the interim. but we've still held events as I have pointed out to you. We will hold more soon. we do what we can, when we can. Check our calendar on the upper menu bar and you'll see some things going on in the state capitol that we hope to make an impact on. We still operate the mobile billboard too.

I should also add, that if think you have a strategy that could be tried, go to your user CP un the upper left part of the menu bar and request to get on the events committee. We're always interested in getting people active and trying new things

I have no problem helping out, I am just trying to get a feel for the operation and the strategic goal / plan. There is no use jumping in over my head if my thoughts exceed the operational limits of a non-profit.

Ayatollahgondola
03-22-2011, 02:14 PM
I have no problem helping out, I am just trying to get a feel for the operation and the strategic goal / plan. There is no use jumping in over my head if my thoughts exceed the operational limits of a non-profit.

We do have limits of course. Some of our own, and some by state and federal law. One of our goals is still to keep pushing the immigration issue to the forefront.

Patriotic Army Mom
03-22-2011, 02:17 PM
Many of us have been out there in the pits. With 2 teenagers at home I've become a shuttle bus, but do what I can. Many have gone to council meetings, and many other things and have done great stuff. Believe it or not, there are so many angles it is a 24/7 job. Most of us don't have time to discuss some of these issues being brought up and wonder why I am. But we are all out here, as for me, I'd rather take it to the streets and get it over with.

Jeanfromfillmore
03-22-2011, 02:34 PM
As a 501c3 non-profit we can not promote any political party, politician or political agenda. We can inform the public of events and situations, but we can not advise or tell the public what they should vote for or politically support.

Cole, there has been a great deal of activities with both successes and failure that have occurred that I think you're not aware of. Six years ago, no one was even talking about illegal immigration. Towns, cities and states weren't trying to get laws and ordinances on their book to fight illegals. They are today. We now have E-Verify and states talking about border security.

Six years ago, while I handed out fliers, very few I spoke to were aware of our problems at the border. Most do today. We've made great strides. While being with the old SOS, Joe had us do "One a day" sending out to all the City Councils throughout the USA, where some towns took up the cause, Hazelton,Pa being the most recognized. That was due to people having a voice and using it (although through a computer).

I appreciate your interest in SOS and hope you'll resume your involvement after such a long hiatus. We never stopped.

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 03:22 PM
As a 501c3 non-profit we can not promote any political party, politician or political agenda. We can inform the public of events and situations, but we can not advise or tell the public what they should vote for or politically support.

Cole, there has been a great deal of activities with both successes and failure that have occurred that I think you're not aware of. Six years ago, no one was even talking about illegal immigration. Towns, cities and states weren't trying to get laws and ordinances on their book to fight illegals. They are today. We now have E-Verify and states talking about border security.

Six years ago, while I handed out fliers, very few I spoke to were aware of our problems at the border. Most do today. We've made great strides. While being with the old SOS, Joe had us do "One a day" sending out to all the City Councils throughout the USA, where some towns took up the cause, Hazelton,Pa being the most recognized. That was due to people having a voice and using it (although through a computer).

I appreciate your interest in SOS and hope you'll resume your involvement after such a long hiatus. We never stopped.

Jean,
you were around when I was involved. I attended Joe's very first protest at the Rancho HD.

BP 1 was a success but BP 2 was a disaster and was ill advised. I made my feelings known about it as well both publicly and privately and left the org shortly thereafter.

Voters are well aware illegal immigration and of the issues however, it is not there priority. Keeping there homes and finding work in this state is the number 1 issue. If the non-profit has its hands tied with what you have listed, it limits the effectiveness of the organization and puts the ball in individuals hands.

Ayatollahgondola
03-22-2011, 03:54 PM
Voters are well aware illegal immigration and of the issues however, it is not there priority. Keeping there homes and finding work in this state is the number 1 issue. If the non-profit has its hands tied with what you have listed, it limits the effectiveness of the organization and puts the ball in individuals hands.

This is the point I've been trying to make to you. Illegal immigration and related issues are our priority. We do not seek continually morph SOS to fit currently hot issues that don't attach themselves to our agenda. We don't seek to be all things political. We address the lost homes, and the lost jobs by bringing attention to the effects that immigration has on them. There are plenty of other avenues and orgs for pressing other agendas.

Cole Younger
03-22-2011, 04:00 PM
This is the point I've been trying to make to you. Illegal immigration and related issues are our priority. We do not seek continually morph SOS to fit currently hot issues that don't attach themselves to our agenda. We don't seek to be all things political. We address the lost homes, and the lost jobs by bringing attention to the effects that immigration has on them. There are plenty of other avenues and orgs for pressing other agendas.

Good enough..

PochoPatriot
03-22-2011, 08:48 PM
Both parties have something to gain from illegal migration. The only difference is that one wants "immigrant" clout in voting numbers exchanged for "social" freebies and the other wants a non voting slave class exchanged for business political favor.

This is the key to the entire problem with illegal immigration. Until someone (Gov. Brewer of Arizona, for instance) stands up for the people and against the special interest groups that dominate both parties NOTHING, NOT ONE THING, will happen to change the status quo.

Rim05
03-23-2011, 08:49 PM
My own idea about our future is, we can no longer take just the illegal immigration approach. Illegal Immigration is mostly caused by our elected officials allowing it to happen.
For those who can, I would say, attend City Council meetings, Those who have children in school, go to everything about your child's school. LAUSD is out of control.
Let us not forget about the Courts, the judges are making many anti American decisions. At one time I started noting the names of our liberal judges but, alas, I don't know where it is now.
When it is time to vote we should hit the court judges hard.
There are many things we can do as individuals besides attending events but it is very important to show the organizer your support by attending events that you can attend. That organizer will really appreciate your attendance.

Patriotic Army Mom
03-24-2011, 07:32 AM
That is so true Rimo! Many of our people are doing just that and getting great results.

ilbegone
03-24-2011, 08:40 AM
Let us not forget about the Courts, the judges are making many anti American decisions. At one time I started noting the names of our liberal judges but, alas, I don't know where it is now.
When it is time to vote we should hit the court judges hard.

Immigration judges.

They act in a manner similar to judges in "infraction" cases, they also act as the jury, and, as I remember, they deny over 60% of removal cases based on such reasoning as "the defendant is in the process of legalization" - after violating immigration law to get here as well as anything else that attracted ICE attention to the defendant.

We have to find a way to eject these charlatans from their benches and prevent law obstructionists from being installed in the first place.

As a note, they are appointed by the US Attorney General of the Justice department, the same people who are suing Arizona for doing what the feds refuse to do.

ilbegone
03-24-2011, 09:05 AM
Here is something I found which might lead in a direction:



The Third Circuit court summoned a deputy assistant U.S. attorney general, Jonathan Cohn, to its Jan. 9 hearing of appeals by a Pakistani journalist and a nephew of an ousted Gambian president. Both had been denied asylum by Ferlise.

On the same day, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales announced a review of immigration judges across the country following allegations of widespread incompetence and bias in their ranks.

In a tape of the proceedings obtained by The Inquirer, the federal judges expressed alarm at Ferlise's treatment of asylum-seekers in cases dating to 1999. They questioned Cohn about the process for reviewing and rebuking immigration judges.

Cohn replied that Gonzales was aware of concerns about Ferlise, and said privacy issues prevented him from commenting further. But, he added,
"whenever there is a judicial finding of misconduct, there's automatically an inquiry by the Office of Professional Responsibility."


A lawsuit, inquiry by the Attorney General, or inquiry by the Office of Professional Responsibility.

ilbegone
03-24-2011, 09:17 AM
Some of it is a circle - the Office of Professional Responsibility is also a part of the Justice department.

How do we seperately divorce the Office of Professional Responsibility and the appointment of immigration judges from the Justice department in such a way as to avoid conflict of interest?

It seems that the Attorney General appoints judges, oversees prosecution in the name of the government, oversees defense in suits against the government, and oversees the unit that investigates misconduct by both Federal Judges and Federal Attorneys.

Cole Younger
03-24-2011, 05:29 PM
Ilbegone,
It is unlikely that a anti-illegal immigration organization is going to have much weight in a court, or changing the way a judge[s] rule and to be honest, it shouldn't have. There is no different between anti-illegal immigration organization and any other special interest group. You wouldn't want pro-amnesty org's, to carry weight in a court of law and/or have influences over judges? If a judge rules in a way you disagree with, even administrative judges, there is a appellate process that can be invoked. You also can petition a federal or local grand jury to investigate.

ilbegone
03-24-2011, 11:39 PM
Cole,


There is a difference between "My agenda vs his agenda" and ruling justly from the bench.

I've been railroaded before and I don't like it - I'm not suggesting that.

However, when someone is here illegally, they should be deported. It's not happening.

I see several things here whether I'm right or off base:

Immigration judges are both judge and jury. The judge may well be subject to the political whims of his boss - The Attorney General, who also oversees the federal unit which investigates potential misconduct in Federal judges and Federal attorneys. The present Attorney General is suing Arizona for daring to encode Federal law into state statute.

As I stated above, I believe that the game is essentially that of after having been busted crashing the concert and milling in the back, the defense is that the crasher was in the process of buying tickets. And it flies.

I believe you are right that a small anti illegal immigration won't have the clout to do any of this. But what can be done is inform.

Most people believe that once ICE picks up an illegal, he's gone yesterday. Not so if the illegal fights it, and at least 60% of those brought before immigration court by ICE are cut loose.

How to change that particular problem without succumbing to tyranny of the majority either way or otherwise engineering unjust prosecution and malicious rulings might be successfully suggested.

Cole Younger
03-26-2011, 05:42 PM
Cole,


There is a difference between "My agenda vs his agenda" and ruling justly from the bench.

I've been railroaded before and I don't like it - I'm not suggesting that.

However, when someone is here illegally, they should be deported. It's not happening.

I see several things here whether I'm right or off base:

Immigration judges are both judge and jury. The judge may well be subject to the political whims of his boss - The Attorney General, who also oversees the federal unit which investigates potential misconduct in Federal judges and Federal attorneys. The present Attorney General is suing Arizona for daring to encode Federal law into state statute.

As I stated above, I believe that the game is essentially that of after having been busted crashing the concert and milling in the back, the defense is that the crasher was in the process of buying tickets. And it flies.

I believe you are right that a small anti illegal immigration won't have the clout to do any of this. But what can be done is inform.

Most people believe that once ICE picks up an illegal, he's gone yesterday. Not so if the illegal fights it, and at least 60% of those brought before immigration court by ICE are cut loose.

How to change that particular problem without succumbing to tyranny of the majority either way or otherwise engineering unjust prosecution and malicious rulings might be successfully suggested.

When, or if, you feel something is wrong and no internal investigation or other remedies is working, you submit a inquiry to a grand jury. The attorney general[s] are not the only people who have access to a grand jury, the people / individuals have access as well.

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 06:32 AM
Is SOS basically a cut and paste news outlet? or am I missing something? Beyond cut and paste for educational purposes, is there anything else going on.

I'm not sure how to address the cut and paste thing.


How about honestly? Here, let me help you out: Yeah, that's pretty much it now. Occasionally, I'll go out and do something here in Sacramento, but outside of this county, SOS doesn't organize events any more.

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 07:21 AM
How about honestly? Here, let me help you out: Yeah, that's pretty much it now. Occasionally, I'll go out and do something here in Sacramento, but outside of this county, SOS doesn't organize events any more.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again now:

The tools are at your disposal to organize an event down there. The event committee is still, and always has been open to those who want to get involved. If you're not happy with the pace and location of the events that we do organize, the event committee is the place to start.

What we don't have, but maybe we should, is a mutiny committee. If you'd like us to start one where you can organize the overthrow of the current chain of command, I have no problem with that. Or perhaps you'd like a demolishing committee instead, since the title of your thread here is more akin to a dismantling of the SOS effort.
You know we're very accomodating on things like this, so just let us know which way you want to go.
:)

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 08:52 AM
I've said this before, and I'll say it again now:

The tools are at your disposal to organize an event down there. The event committee is still, and always has been open to those who want to get involved. If you're not happy with the pace and location of the events that we do organize, the event committee is the place to start.

What we don't have, but maybe we should, is a mutiny committee. If you'd like us to start one where you can organize the overthrow of the current chain of command, I have no problem with that. Or perhaps you'd like a demolishing committee instead, since the title of your thread here is more akin to a dismantling of the SOS effort.
You know we're very accomodating on things like this, so just let us know which way you want to go.
:)

I'm not sure those are the best courses of action. Let's follow a third plan:

Why don't you continue with the same conduct you've been practicing for the past year? This way, when things are exactly the same in three, six or nine months from now, and yet another person asks why we haven't staged an event for fill in the blank, you can tell him/her:

A. The event committee is open, it's always been open.
B. There's just a lot of apathy out there right now, I'm seeing it everywhere and not just in immigration ...
C. We're doing pretty well for an organization people threw under the bus and tried to strangle!
D. We're here to poke, prod, encourage and assist ...
E. We can't force anyone to organize something. I can lead a horse to water ...
F. Well, we just had an election season go by, people have been pretty worried about this economy and that's keeping them busy ...

That way, when pressed on the subject, you won't have to invent new irrelevant and inaccurate excuses, you can utilize the old reliable ones that have been field tested.

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 09:41 AM
I'm not sure those are the best courses of action. Let's follow a third plan:

Why don't you continue with the same conduct you've been practicing for the past year? This way, when things are exactly the same in three, six or nine months from now, and yet another person asks why we haven't staged an event for fill in the blank, you can tell him/her:

A. The event committee is open, it's always been open.
B. There's just a lot of apathy out there right now, I'm seeing it everywhere and not just in immigration ...
C. We're doing pretty well for an organization people threw under the bus and tried to strangle!
D. We're here to poke, prod, encourage and assist ...
E. We can't force anyone to organize something. I can lead a horse to water ...
F. Well, we just had an election season go by, people have been pretty worried about this economy and that's keeping them busy ...

That way, when pressed on the subject, you won't have to invent new irrelevant and inaccurate excuses, you can utilize the old reliable ones that have been field tested.

When the event committee did organize, you did nothing but criticize the main person engaged in organizing. You berated her, belittled her, condescended, antagonized, impugned, and even torpedoed her in the full view of the rest of the committee. Is it any wonder that the others would be reluctant to take the initiative after witnessing that bit of savage, unwarranted, and undeserving action?
And now you'd have me stand before the remaining crew, with the executioner still sword in hand, and ask "alright, who's next?"
Hell no! That's not me. I get out and provide example instead. I'm not afraid of you either. I don't care which side of the immigration issue you're on; The treatment is still the same. And that's why we don't curtail or silence you. We're not going to take the nightingale approach, and that of several other organizations/websites that have censored you and others for perceived or real infractions. What we are going to do is let the record speak for you. So it's up to you how you want to be remembered.

As for the event committe, it is still open. We still want action, and we still welcome participation. You can apply yourself, or complain about how others don't. The former has at least a chance of success. The latter has a pre-ordained outcome. I choose the chance of success. I beg others to do the same

ilbegone
04-01-2011, 09:46 AM
Respectfully to all parties here:

Has Sam and the staff at Derailamnesty.com organized and fielded an event?

Is Sam himself willing to organize and field an event in SoCal?

What is so important about titles of organizations as opposed to personal initiative?

Not baiting, sincere question.

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 10:15 AM
When the event committee did organize, you did nothing but criticize the main person engaged in organizing. You berated her, belittled her, condescended, antagonized, impugned, and even torpedoed her in the full view of the rest of the committee. Is it any wonder that the others would be reluctant to take the initiative after witnessing that bit of savage, unwarranted, and undeserving action?
And now you'd have me stand before the remaining crew, with the executioner still sword in hand, and ask "alright, who's next?"
Hell no! That's not me. I get out and provide example instead. I'm not afraid of you either. I don't care which side of the immigration issue you're on; The treatment is still the same. And that's why we don't curtail or silence you. We're not going to take the nightingale approach, and that of several other organizations/websites that have censored you and others for perceived or real infractions. What we are going to do is let the record speak for you. So it's up to you how you want to be remembered.

As for the event committe, it is still open. We still want action, and we still welcome participation. You can apply yourself, or complain about how others don't. The former has at least a chance of success. The latter has a pre-ordained outcome. I choose the chance of success. I beg others to do the same


The personal attacks (Schwilk, executioner, etc.) are a nice and imaginative addition to the excuses you've been floating for awhile, but the equation remains the same. You have an organizing committee that won't organize. Doling out 37 different, and increasingly creative, explanations for inaction and SOS atrophy, to me, Phil, Cole or whoever else broaches what is clearly a sensitive topic w/ you, doesn't change that SOS is ignored b/c it is inactive. So, when Cole remarks that it looks like most of what is done here is cut and paste, he's right.

That's the record, and I'll be happy to stand on it.

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 10:31 AM
Doling out 37 different reasons for inaction and SOS atrophy to me, Phil, Cole or whoever else broaches what is clearly a sensitive topic w/ you, doesn't change that SOS is ignored b/c it is inactive. So, when Cole remarks that it looks like most of what is done here is cut and paste, he's right.

That's the record, and I'll be happy to stand on it.

Most topics are sensitive to me; I'm a sensitive guy. And I repeat: I'm not afraid of you or your scrutiny either.

If you don't like the cut and paste; don't read it

If you don't like the effort we are doing, or you think it isn't enough; duly noted, but it carries less weight when you haven't offered something in alternative. You telling people they aren't doing enough is not the same as doing something yourself

ilbegone
04-01-2011, 10:38 AM
I respectfully ask as to what is Sam's solution?

Junk the organization, change the leadership, change the membership, or step up and organize an event in Southern California?

Once again, not baiting.

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 10:52 AM
Most topics are sensitive to me; I'm a sensitive guy. And I repeat: I'm not afraid of you or your scrutiny either.

If you don't like the cut and paste; don't read it

If you don't like the effort we are doing, or you think it isn't enough; duly noted, but it carries less weight when you haven't offered something in alternative. You telling people they aren't doing enough is not the same as doing something yourself


Not only are you unafraid (Dude, what would or could I do to you?), you're not easily embarrassed, either. There doesn't seem to be much about SOS's ongoing decay and increasing irrelevancy that seems to phase you.

And I did offer you an alternative, and you hit the roof when I mentioned it - Close it down.

It's getting embarrassing ... although I'm confident you don't agree.

Look, there's no point belaboring this further. You and I clearly reason very differently, and this is hardly the first time we've disagreed.

When (and if) you get fed up, let me know. I'll buy the url from you. I won't continue the organization but I'd like the internet traffic.

ilbegone
04-01-2011, 11:04 AM
Running the risk of "chirping", I now see potential motivation for this thread:



...I'll buy the url from you... I'd like the internet traffic...

I respectfully submit that an offer could have been privately made. I believe the disagreeable nature of this public discussion was and is totally unnecessary.

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 11:08 AM
Not only are you unafraid (Dude, what would or could I do to you?), you're not easily embarrassed, either. There doesn't seem to be much about SOS's ongoing decay and increasing irrelevancy that seems to phase you.

And I did offer you an alternative, and you hit the roof when I mentioned it - Close it down.

It's getting embarrassing ... although I'm confident you don't agree.

Look, there's no point belaboring this further. You and I clearly reason very differently, and this is hardly the first time we've disagreed.

When (and if) you get fed up, let me know. I'll buy the url from you. I won't continue the organization but I'd like the internet traffic.

No; I'm not afraid of embarrassment either. I would think my history of activism would have been your first clue. And yes; I'm very stubborn, and even my own bodily decay doesn't phase me.
Today, and throughout the past year, you've posted many links to your website. You're already getting free internet traffic...from an allegedly decaying, irrelevant organization no less. No need to thank us. That's what we're here for

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 11:25 AM
No; I'm not afraid of embarrassment either. I would think my history of activism would have been your first clue. And yes; I'm very stubborn, and even my own bodily decay doesn't phase me.
Today, and throughout the past year, you've posted many links to your website. You're already getting free internet traffic...from an allegedly decaying, irrelevant organization no less. No need to thank us. That's what we're here for


Actually, as I'm sure you're aware, I just offered you money for a rapidly devaluing product. I'm confident you know this is true b/c I don't doubt you keep track of the SOS hit count and link traffic.

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 11:36 AM
Actually, as I'm sure you're aware, I just offered you money for a rapidly devaluing product. I'm confident you know this is true b/c I don't doubt you keep track of the SOS hit count and link traffic.

We're not in it for the money or the popularity. Most of us have risked our fame and fortune for principle and community. The latter two goals are the only hit count I'm interested in here.

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 11:54 AM
We're not in it for the money or the popularity. Most of us have risked our fame and fortune for principle and community. The latter two goals are the only hit count I'm interested in here.


No, you haven't. There's not a current member of SOS who has either fame or fortune to lose. What are you talking about? And insofar as community is concerned, your traffic shows that fewer and fewer members of that community care enough to even visit the site.

What you have is a dwindling population that cares enough about the organization to occasionally look in. That's what your numbers reveal. Start dealing in reality.

Rim05
04-01-2011, 01:02 PM
Why, Oh why must we go this way? This reminded me that I did not send the donation for the lettering. As I said before, it will not be very much but remember my SS check may not come on 5-1 because the GOP wants the government to shut down unless they get 'their' way.
Too bad for old people.
Some of this is what happened to SOS.org.

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 01:09 PM
No, you haven't. There's not a current member of SOS who has either fame or fortune to lose. What are you talking about? And insofar as community is concerned, your traffic shows that fewer and fewer members of that community care enough to even visit the site.

What you have is a dwindling population that cares enough about the organization to occasionally look in. That's what your numbers reveal. Start dealing in reality.

And here's a reality for you to deal with:
Your record here is going to reflect one that is intent on the failure of our effort, rather than the success of it.
You can change that or continue it

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 01:15 PM
Some of this is what happened to SOS.org.

I think it's different. There was a lot more mistrust because there was a lot more censorship, control and hidden subterfuge. I'll give him one thing. I commend him for finally stating his goal.

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 01:41 PM
And here's a reality for you to deal with:
Your record here is going to reflect one that is intent on the failure of our effort, rather than the success of it.
You can change that or continue it


Davi, as has been the case on multiple occasions in the past, I think you and I will have to continue to disagree. A meeting of the minds just doesn't appear to be on the horizon.

Jeanfromfillmore
04-01-2011, 02:41 PM
Sam finally came out and showed his true colors. Taking over SOS was and has been his goal from day one, and some of us knew it. He made it impossible to work with him and constantly complained over things that were so insignificant, one had to question his motives. He did a great deal of damage within weeks of the new SOS getting started. This was not revealed on the board, and keep between those that were involved and on the receiving end of his agenda.

Sam is not privy to the working of SOS anymore and has not been for about one year. He has no idea what we are doing and thus cannot disrupt us except to make various attacks at our progress.

Sam has in the past associated himself with other organization, just to be rejected. He recently has tried to go off on his own with an internet forum board which he closed down, and now has a blog that he places on the SOS forum to generate some activity. But obviously he and his blog are not getting the attention he desires and he feels it is time to make a move at obtaining the SOS forum, which was his goal from day one.

Sam you may think of yourself as having the ability to dodge a question with just a reply but not an answer. But it is obvious to others what your intent has been for a long time. You've used your "lawyer card" as a carrot many times, but have seldom followed through with anything. My advice is to leave as gracefully as you can because there is a history that follows you and some have long memories.

DerailAmnesty.com
04-01-2011, 03:05 PM
Jean, that's simply brilliant. You've figured things out so throughly and gleaned each of my ulterior motives. Now I understand why you can't possibly be bothered to orchestrate anything. Why it must have taken you every waking hour to piece all that together.

Actually, I'm going to have to apologize to, at least you, for having pointed out the largely self-evident in this thread. It was never my intention to post anything that might distract you from being the first person to cut and paste 3000 entries on the board.

I'm confident that if you continue with the same dogged determination you've had for over a year, you'll reach your ultimate goal in no time. Godspeed to you.

ilbegone
04-01-2011, 03:38 PM
Is this what could be loosely termed a hostile take over attempt?

Angry words, brow beating, insults, and an offer to buy out just to shut it down but use it for unspecified internet traffic?

To what personal purpose? It doesn't seem to be about getting a bargain.

Just a little more cut and paste...

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http://www.vbulletin.com/

GET YOUR OWN URL $6.99

http://www.networksolutions.com/domain-name-registration/RV8.jsp?siteid=181&channelid=P13C181S570N0B9A1D661E0000V100&promo=RV699SALE3&referID=ns_msn_domains_tp&k=buy_url{Phone-RV}&adid=439822932&rvm=p&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=buy%20url&utm_content=439822932&utm_campaign=Domains%20TP%20Search%20{Open}&s_pid=2&s_kid=4922815971&s_cid=70816368&s_agid=525089817&s_aid=439822932&s_mt=p&clickid=6252555264

Ayatollahgondola
04-01-2011, 04:24 PM
Everyone has an opinion, bad, good, or indifferent about others here. I'm still lobbying for people to get active out there, and here. I don't want to run anyone off, or make it seem inhospitable. I don't have a problem telling someone what I think of them, or their actions, and still wanting them to be active, or even putting up with their opinions of me afterwards.
I want to keep fighting back. I'll still support those who do the same, even if I disagree strongly with them on anything or everything else.

Ayatollahgondola
04-03-2011, 08:16 AM
I have no idea what inspired this thread in the first place. Quite obviously if it were a simple business proposition it would have served the proposer better to have done so in a letter or phone call. So I don't believe that was the primary motive.
Neither do I see any possible value coming out of someone within the immigration law enforcement support community trying to publicly humiliate the effort that some of us have given towards this organization. We may not be entirely effective at present, but what possible good comes from denouncing that which we are able to do? Would our community be served better by silencing one more open house that is still willing to speak out and continue activism in whatever form it can, with whatever resources it can muster?
I'll go one step beyond that and ask why is it more important to point out the perceived weaknesses of this entity, than the will, dedication, and recent effort of those still willing to apply themselves here?

Patriotic Army Mom
04-03-2011, 06:03 PM
Very well said! Every time I went to a rally, it wasn't to find fault with those I rallied with, it was for the cause, and only the cause. I will still rally anytime that I can, and it will be for the same reason. Those that nit pick are the problems and don't see it.

Jeanfromfillmore
04-03-2011, 06:29 PM
Thank you for speaking up PAM, we appreciate it.

I have a hard time with people considering this board "their entertainment"

We have worked with fumes in regards to donations of any sort, I can count on one hand any financial support we've received.

Some people only want us to organize street activism so they can attend them to advertise their own agenda. We don't stop other from promoting themselves, but to come on this board and criticize because they're not getting enough attention or enough entertainment while not supporting this organization in any way shape or form, is very uncalled for.

You will notice that everything I mentioned about Sam and what he did, he did not deny. Not one word. All he could do was to try to belittle what I have done by criticizing me for keeping this board updated and moderated as much as I can. Now I'm a bad guy for donating my time to this board and keeping it current.

We do a lot that others don't know about or even need to know, and I might add, we're not paid employees, we volunteer our own time and money.

The last protest we did about 8 people showed up, and that included me. Even though the media showed and waited about an hour for others to show, they didn't.

We have started SOS Radio, now there's little excuse to not participate, no one has to leave their comfort zone. But some people can't get their advertising through that outlet, and that really bothers them.

You want this org. to grow and have more street activism? There's an easy answer, promote it and participate.

Patriotic Army Mom
04-04-2011, 08:19 AM
I take this very serious. It is no joke. It keeps us all up on what's going on. If there were no teenagers in my house, my flag and I would be at everything. My flag stays in my trunk and I'm ready to rock and roll. Thanks to all of you for doing what you can, we are not done yet, and soon we all will hit the streets.

DerailAmnesty.com
05-02-2011, 07:08 PM
I have no idea what inspired this thread in the first place.

That's not true. It might be accurate if you were either stupid or illiterate, but you're not.

The first post in this thread reflects that the subject matter was nothing being done or scheduled.

Ayatollahgondola
05-02-2011, 09:31 PM
That's not true. It might be accurate if you were either stupid or illiterate, but you're not.

You're such a sweet talker when you're in the mood :o

americafirst
06-26-2011, 11:08 AM
Is this a good time to get involved. Tancredo just endorsed the National E-Verify legislation-Lamar Smith H.R. 2164 Legal Workforce Act. It is difficult to know if a support rally will make a difference, but it would be nice to gather and see some of you guys. The weather is nice and the public is receptive.
I'll bring the starbucks!

Jeanfromfillmore
06-26-2011, 02:01 PM
Is this a good time to get involved. Tancredo just endorsed the National E-Verify legislation-Lamar Smith H.R. 2164 Legal Workforce Act. It is difficult to know if a support rally will make a difference, but it would be nice to gather and see some of you guys. The weather is nice and the public is receptive.
I'll bring the starbucks!Where are you located?

americafirst
06-28-2011, 04:35 PM
Simi/West San Fernando area. Just suggesting a issue that will reasonate with the public. it would even be great if we had something where Davi could come down and meet some more of our southern california members.

Rim05
06-29-2011, 06:18 AM
I do wish we could become more active in any kind of activities. That includes going to city council meetings and EVERYTHING CONCERNING SCHOOLS. Encourage those you know to do something, teach them the things you know in a friendly manner.
Sacramento seems to be the hot bed of protests these days instead of SoCal. The opposition throngs can still be organized in LA by the opposition today at the whim of our Invaders.
Life does change so, I know some people are now unemployed,have moved away, have children, have married and, have street retired. Just, please, don't give up.

Everyday, I listen to something new that is changing, and it is never for the better for us.

I listen to the politicians screaming about what they will correct and change. Just remember, they are pandering for your vote only. Once elected they will do what they want. They are on their way to wealth. You are the only one who can stop/change that.
Good luck in any and all you do.

Ayatollahgondola
06-29-2011, 08:03 AM
I do wish we could become more active in any kind of activities. That includes going to city council meetings and EVERYTHING CONCERNING SCHOOLS. Encourage those you know to do something, teach them the things you know in a friendly manner.

Yes please. I've posted several videos of myself at council, supervisor, and state committee meetings as an example. Also have posted positive results coming from those. These meetings are often devoid of input from us, and it is my opinion that they actually like us showing up and getting involved, if for no other reason than it is boring without us.
Protests are great...I mean really great. But standing on the bridge where the captains are charting the course and where they have to let you give input on that course is like getting your chance on wheel of fortune, with the exception that it's your future you are playing for.